I need some help , looking for reliable info about the casualties of the German allies in the Stalingrad campaing.
I’ll have a cast about. I did have a thread on the Romanians. They got pretty smashed up.
This is a reasonably accurate table from the wiki. Bearing in mind there are still huge shifts to actual numbers of casualties on both sides.
Military losses on the Eastern Front during World War II1
Forces fighting with the Axis (includes Russians fighting for Germans (Vlasov’s army)).
Nation//Total Dead//KIA/MIA//POWs taken by the Soviets//POWs that died in Captivity
Greater Germany//4,300,000//4,000,000//3,300,000//374,000
Soviet//215,000+//215,000//1,000,000//Unknown
Romania//281,000//81,000//500,000//200,000
Hungary//300,000//100,000//500,000//200,000
Italy//82,000//32,000//70,000//50,000
Total//5,178,000+//4,428,000//5,450,000//824,000
Mind be an idea to put that in to table form to understand it better.
The Romanians put together two Armies (3rd and 4th), that when combined had more manpower than the remainder of the German Allies on the front combined. THey were second only to the number of Germans deployed. At one point a Romanian Army even had Operational Control of a German Army (6th) during fighting.
The Romanians were attempting to gain Transalvaynia back (amonghts other things) thus the freindly attitude to the Nazis. They had been giving serious thought to going to war with Hungary for this very terriroty as WW2 began.
The Rumanians, also took part in the various death heads units killing jews and other “untermensch”. THis included a system of death camps in ROmania itself. The level of extermination, was not to the same level as the Germans though. Many Jews survived the war.
It is also a fact the Rumanians were abused by the Germans. Many goods sent to Germany for the war effort were not paid for. And Rumanian Troops often got the “sh1tty end of the stick” when it came to deployements. ie the attacks that would lead to most casualties.
Romania pulled out of the axis when their King took power towards the end of 1944. The 1st Army (used for Home Defence until that point), a newly formed 2nd, and the remainder of the 3rd and 4th (both heavily depleted of men and equipment) were tasked with the defence of Romania against German attack and were offered to the Allies.
1 in 5 men were casualties fighting against the Germans (over 100,000 casualties for about 550,000 men commited to battle), when the Romanians fought alongside the Soviets. This turn around is believed to have cut the War in Europes duration from between 3 months and 2 years, depending who you believe.
Both the 3rd and 4th Armies fought in German Army Group B. The 3rd especially was smashed up by the Soviet Operation Uranus, which encircled the German 6th Army. by the time of the change over to the Allies it was at 1/3 strength.
Hungary had a similarly sad association with Nazi Germany. Not actually asked to provide troops for the War, it was decided to offer assistance. Mainly to mitigate Rumanias favour, and thus part of the same Transalvanyia situation.
Their co-operation with the Germans began in the early '30s. Hungary was in the grip of a depression, similar to Germanys. A trade agreement between the staggering Hungary and the fast growing Germany led to Hungary being lifted out of her depression but reliant on Germany.
Due to the Depression the political situation was similar to Nazi Germany too. With many disenchanted people, right wing nationalism grew. The Hungarians took to Hitlers promises of various treaties on land and armed forces sizes being discarded, by following the Nazi beliefs on such things as Jews.
The Germans made a few land gifts to teh Hungarians, and managed to slow a war down between teh Hungarians and the Slovaks. (Mar '39). And awarded Northern Translyvania to them (the south going to the Rumanians).
Hungarian troops were initially used to assist the Germans in the invasion of Yugoslavia. This was a particular confused issue. In late 1940, Hungary joined the Axis, but signed a pact of “eternal freindship” with Yugoslave at around the same time. When events in Yugoslavia threatened Op Barabrosa, Germany asked Hungary for assistance.
The prime minister of Hungary commited suicide on the grounds that he couldn’t prevent Hungary from being embroiled in war. His successor was even more right winga nd pro_germany.
After this, Hungary decided to assist Germany in the East. Mainly for favours (should the Transalvania borders be redrawn or other territories be re-gifted). Mid 1941, a Hungarian unit called the Karpet Group was ordered to attack.
The Karpet Group was roughly 2 Bdes of Infantry (1 mountain and 1 Border guards) and a Mechanised Corps’. Some 45,000 men, mainly on foot. They were to attack a Russian Army of 56,000 men over a frontage of 200 miles! The Hungarians suffered due to lack of transport, as they would always do when fighting alongside the more mechanised German units. Although the Mountain Bde had some success as they entered the mountains.
The Karpet Group bore heavy losses, and managed to push about 80 miles in to Soviet territory. But as a fighting unit ceased to be. The group was broken up and used for adminstration tasks inside occupied areas.
The mechanised Corps’ was attached to a German Army group and went on to do well in various actions including being one half of a pincer movement that captured two Soviet Armys.
The Mechanised Corps’ story now becomes a sad one. Constantly losing men, as it was committed to battle, the Hungarians lobbied the Germans to realease the unit. They believed that the Hungarian troops should only be used to defend Hungaries borders. The Hungarians neglected to replace men or equipment that was lost in battle. This was an attempt to force the Germans hand in to releasing the unit.
Finally at teh end of 1941, the Germans realeased the Hungarian unit from their Order of Battle. 6 months of continuous fighting, at least half of which was unsupported by the Hungarians. The Corps was down to 6 Bns (barely a division) and had lost ALL of its light tanks, and 90% of it’s medium tanks and armoured cars. Over 12,000 men were killed, missing or wounded. The unit had covered over 1000 miles.
The German high command, quite rightly, praised the Hungarian unit, and held them in high esteem.
This didn’t stop the Nazi’s high command, Hitler included, hammering the Hungarians with a real shocker. The Germans told the Hungarians that a former Hungarian Chief of Staff had promised the Germans that their Mech Corps’ would be replaced on it’s removal from operations. With a larger force.
Hitler would allow the Mech Corps’ to retire fromthe front in exchange for this force.
The Mech Corps’ left theatre at the end of ‘41. Leaving a bicycle Bn, four Inf Bdes and two Cav bdes (these were not part of the Mech Corps). And pressure was exerted on Hungary to replace the mech Corps’. The men left behind were ill-equipped or prepared for the Russian winter and fared terribly. Oly the Cavalry contributed much.
The Mech Corps’ was replaced by the 2nd Hungarian Army. This ill-feted army would be smashed, first defending the Northern flank of the German 6th Army (as it battled for Stanlingrad) then in various operations to counter Soviet actions.
120,000 Hungarians were dead by Feb '43, and the 2nd Hungarian Army had ceased to be a credible fighting force of any size.
The Mech Corps’, on return to Hungary, was reformed as the 1 Armoured Corps. This Army was to go on to be the stalwart unit in the defence of Budapest against teh Soviets. The Army was disbanded on the day of Budapests surrender to teh Soviets.
There is also a whole palava when there were German/Hungarian units fighting and the Hungarians signed a peace treaty with the Soviets. Fortunaltly for the Germans, the Hungarian units ignored the command to stand down and carried on fighting. (otherwise a huge gap of some 700 miles, opened by the Rumanians and Bulgarians declaration of war on Germany) would have grown bigger and there would have been fewer men to cover the gap!!! This was a particularly desperate time for the Axis units on that front.
Germany overran Hungary, and kept them onside.
The Italians got in to the Russian front when Mussolini offered the Italian forces help. Hitler wasn’t overly enthusiastic about Italian help, but took it anyway.
There were two armies, the first called the Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia and the other was the Italian 8th Army (or Italian Army in Russia). The 8th eventually took on the Corps as one of its own.
The Italian Exped Corps was the first to arrive in Russia. It was made up of 3 divisions. Two Truck-Transportable Divisions (which used commercial trucks pressed in to service, many still had various trade names on the sides!!!).
The 3rd (Celere) Div (celere = fast). Which was made up of Cavalry and Mechanised units, it also had a sizeable contingent of Bersiglierie. These were/are elite sharpshooters who used motorcycles and bicycles for movment. Artillery was horse drawn.
(These are the ones who wear green feathers on their helmets and other head gear, it goes back to their original head gear. Similar to the mountain troops who wear “night caps” with wool pom poms on the end. Can be still seen in todays troops)
None of the tanks, or indeed the AT guns, were a match for the T-34s of teh Soviet Armies. The German 11th Army were given this Division.
The Itailian Corps’ first contact was Autumn '41. They had lost 16,000 men by July '42. This was possibly due to the fact that this was mainly fierce fighting in the city of Stalino (not stalingrad nor named after Stalin, but because it is a Steel manufacturing area (Stalin = Steal man or man of Steal) and neighbouring towns.
The Russians fought back with the Christmas day offensivs of '41.
After this period the 8th Italian Army was formed. The Italian Corps became 35th Army Corps (Italian) within the 8th. The 8th was part of the German Army Group B.
The other Corps were the 2nd and the Mountain. The 2nd was made up of 4 Inf Divisions, the Mountain Corps was made up of 3 Alpine Divisions. The 4th Div of the 2nd Corps’ was allocated line of Communications duties.
The 8th also had two German Divisions under its command, and 4 Legions (roughly a Regiment) of Croation and (3) Italian Black Shirts (fascist) volunteers.
In total some 225,000 men, 1500 guns and mortars, 25,000 horses and 70 aircraft. Unfortunately it was pitifully short of tanks (and the ones it had were worse than useless against the Soviet tanks), and (apart from the Alpine troops) it was essentially un-equipped for winter.
The commander of the Italian Espeditionary Corps in Russia/35 Corps was essentially dismissed from his post for opposing the enlargement of Italian forces in Russia until they could be properly equipped. His succesor was later accused of not standing up for his forces enough to the Germans. (From what I have wrote about the Hungarians and Rumanians you can guess how they were used and abused).
The first actions of the 8th were to advance on the Don, in which they held of numourous attacks and Bridgeheads.
By late '42 they were on the left flank of the German 6th Army (entering Stalingrad) between the Hungarian 2nd Army in the South West to teh Rumanian 3rd Army in the North West. The Italian line was thin, 150 miles along the Don, made worse by the fact they didn’t dig trenches or set up any serious defensive positions. Due to the heavy snow and cold frost.
The Italians were unaffected by Soviet operations (which smashed the Rumanian Armies to Stalingrads North and South). Early Dec '42 saw the Soviet Operation Saturn begin, to destroy all Axis forces along the Don. Little Saturn was the first stage, and targeted pretty much the entire frontage of the 8th.
Due to good recces and int gathering, the first two divisions hit were in the weakest position, they crumbled and were destroyed by a Soviet attack backed with extra Tanks. Not long after the Russians smashed the Hungarians (North) and the Romanians (South) lines. Spliting the 8th from the rest of the “Don Line”, with an already pierced line.
The Russians 1st Guards Army then hit the middle of the 8ths line, held by a German Division, 3 Inf Divs and the “Fast” Division. These were destroyed in little under a fortnight.
The Alpine Div was next. Now particularly crucial, as there flanking units (the units destroyed by the 1st Guards and the Hungarians). Two divisions were destroyed, with one being able to get away to safety. This Division (Trindadte) was the only one able to put up any resistance after this breakout.
The men were returned to Italy, but were hidden away, so ravaged were they by the condtions of the Eastern Front. Over 20,000 were killed, 65,000 captured and a further 45,000 were “unable to withdraw”.
The debacle of the 8th on the Eastern Front was comlete by Feb '43. The 8th was in full rout and was recalled to Italy. 150,000 men (34,000 of which were wounded) returned to Italy. The badly scarred survivors openly blamed the Army Generals and the Government for sending ill-equipped (winter stores), inadequatly armed (tanks esp) and ill prepared (no training was carried out for the task at hand or as assembled groups).
Germans were accused of leaving Italians in place, to allow German units to withdraw. July saw the Fascist party of Italy out of power, and Italy joined the Allies against Germany in Sept '43.
All in all, a sad story for all three countries. All of whom toadied up to the Germans for one reason or another, and were all abused by Germany. It is undoubtedly true that non-German troops were at the top of the list for the more dangerous jobs that would expend troops but weren’t as tacticaly or strategiclly important and the bottom of the list for any form of support.
I would guess the only reason the German 6th Army was committed to Stalingrad instead of another countrys unit was because Hitler wanted Germans to take it. I would have gone around it, let an Inf Army take it and pushed on to the East but hey.
It is also true that the Romanians and Hungarians fought well, but were essentially abused and/or let down by their own governments (esp the Hungarians). The Germans were quite good at playing these two countries off against each other (particularly holding Translyvania as a trump card, I don’t know why each country wanted it so bad. I’ll have to find out).
The Italians had a lunatic blow hard in charge, who committed them to battles and missions they were often unsuited and ill equipped to take on. Also in the field they were not the best of fighters.
Their Alpine Troops fought well (their poor display on the Don being more to zero support from the flanks or rear, and being attacked by heavily superior numbers than lack of fighting spirit), and their Bersaglieri fought very well (they were selected from the best recruits and selected to join the ranks).
Thanks, with your data I going to look search for more about the italian campain.
In total some 225,000 men, 1500 guns and mortars, 25,000 horses and 70 aircraft. Unfortunately it was pitifully short of tanks (and the ones it had were worse than useless against the Soviet tanks), and (apart from the Alpine troops) it was essentially un-equipped for winter.
Just imagine one (or more ) M 13/40 against a T-34 , no contest at all.
Sadly enough they weren’t even supplied with any AFV of any consequence or numbers in Russia let alone the obsolete death trap M13/40!
The following is reprinted from http://www.honved.com/avantitheatres.html
because I was too lazy to write it out by myself lol
Once again, the single most commonly encountered Italian tank in
Russia was the CV/L3 tankette.
The L6/40 was also deployed,
ironically as a result of the complaints of Italian tankers that their
vehicles were not heavy enough to engage their Russian
opponents. This was the single heaviest deployment of the L6/40,
and at least 75% of the total completed were deployed to Russia
before the end of Italy’s war against the Soviet Union. The
Semovente da 47/32 was deployed in late 1942, and one or two
Semovente da 75/18s found their way to Russia. Nothing heavier
was ever deployed against the Soviets, despite the fact that the
Semovente da 90/53 and the P40 heavy tank were both specifically
designed and purchased for that purpose.
Some time in 1942, CSIR captured a small number of T-34/76 tanks
from the Red Army. These were immediately deployed and used
whenever and wherever possible. Exact numbers and performance
details are unknown - sources give a wild range of numbers, from
less than ten to more than three hundred such vehicles. Neither
should be considered outside the realm of possibility, given that the
Germans captured entire factory floors full of T-34 tanks.
Sad and tragic, the Italians were totally unprepared. Can you imagine facing T-34’s with the tiny CV or L/6 with just a 20mm gun at best!!!:shock:
The Semovente 47/32 was pretty much another death trap,the Semovente 75/18 would have at least been a little useful, but to send 1 or 2 there was a insult and a joke.:roll:
Definately. The italian armor disimulated in some way its faults in Afrika because it was well mixed between Afrika Korps, but never they fielded a suitable tank.
Sending M13 against T-34 and KVs was simple suicidal.
More about Italian armor.
Greetings All
Does anyone have any pictures of the Italian Army (especially Alpini) in Russia or know of any websites ?
Also does anyone know of the Italian Savoy cavalry (???) operating in Russia ?
I remember some of the book " Germany Eastern front allies" Vol I by Osprey publishing.
Danke Panzerknacker !
Many thanks for the reply - I went and bought a copy of this book from the Men at Arms series (131) today - great colour plates. Has anyone ever heard a story re the Finns being hoirrified at the Germans apparently having their helmets freezing to their heads in the sub zero temps of Russia - can’t remember where I read that but would be surprised if true.
I knew an elderly Italian migrant to Australia (now deceased) who had been in the Alpini in Russia - horrific experioence - the plate G3 of the Alpini in the snow is interesting - I recall him telling me that the Italian’s relations with the Hungarians, Rumanians was good and even the local Russian civilians ( he told me they traded bread for Russian boots the locals made) however their relations with the Wermacht were strained - apparently the German tankers would not allow the Alpini to ride along. The plate (G3) shows the Alpini carrying a spade - he told me that in their retreat through the snow from near Stalingrad a sharp entrenching tool in the right hands was a deadly weapon in close up combat due to rifles freezing up.
With the change in alliances in 20th century Europe it must have been “interesting” for northern Italians to find the Austrians / Germans their allies (and vice versa) after the WW 1 battles in the alps.
No problem.
With the change in alliances in 20th century Europe it must have been “interesting” for northern Italians to find the Austrians / Germans their allies (and vice versa) after the WW 1 battles in the alps.
Well…remember Rommel, he won most of his medals in WW1 fighting against the Italians, and then in ww2 he lead them to battle several times. Quite ironic.
The relation with the russian population were good mostly because 3 things:
-
They were nor germans
-
The Italian High command ( and consecuently the foot soldier) was not messed up by racial issues like the Whermatch.
-
The italian are always looking for women, so they have to play nice.
I ll try to dig for more pictures related with the italians in Eastern Front.
I had seen some videos of the Regian aeronautica in the East, unfortunately those are streaming, cant be posted here.
2 more images of the Alpini in the Ost, this is extracted from “The Italian army 1940-45 part 1” by P.S Jowett.
