RUSSIAN POWs

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#1

It is so difficult to ascertain the facts when there are probably no reliable sources …

Is it true that the Russians killed their own POWs?

Quoted from http://pasttense.nl/category/war/world-war-2/eastern-front/

"Considering only the sheer magnitude of the Second World War, it is surprising how little we know today of the horrible series of events that shaped the world as we know it now. As in fairy tales and corny Japanese RPG’s, we always refer to it as the war. We are told it was horrible. Period. I have always felt that there was more to war then just that. Anthony Beevor illustrates with a quote from a letter sent by a Russian prisoner of war:

[…] “rumors go that “our people” are coming closer. We can hardly wait. Perhaps we will soon meet our brothers and an end will come to our suffering. Shall we live through these horrible times? Shall we ever see our family again? We cannot hold out much longer. It is terrible here in Germany.”

That sounds nasty. The morbid thing is that as soon as prison or labour camps in German territories were “liberated”, most of the prisoners were shot. To Stalin and the communist party there were only those fighting for the motherland, and those collaborating with the fascists invaders. In the whole of the Second World War, the Soviet Union has never acknowledged “prisoners of war”. The world “horrible” does not suffice for describing being killed by your fellow countrymen out of hate and indifference in a war of total annihilation."

#2

It is True, those who surrender were traitors, the same happened in the last days in Berlin, the famous picture of a german soldier hanged in a tree with a sign in his neck saying “i am a traitor” well, that is the short version

#3

Hello,

Yes, many POW were concidered to be traiters and had to either serve a sentence in GULAG or were shot. But not all of them. I think it was mainly in the first part of the war when it was “unacceptable” to surrender.
I will try to get more specific info.

Best regards
Igor Korenev

#4

Some of theme were re-educated politilcaly and send to Penal Batallions so tehey could “wash their honor with their blood”

#5

Guys let’s stop to creat the myths and rumours.
To understand the full pictures with soviet POWs we need to study the historians…
We have enough statistic sources today:
The russian historian V.F.Nekrasov in his book "Thirteen steel narkoms(Narkom was the leader of state department- my comment) " gives the archive figures of fate of soviet POWs in NKVD
According the NKVD datas
During the period autumn of 1941 till the 1 october 1944:

Total quantity of liberated POWs -354 590 or 100%
Returned back to the Red Army - 249 416 or 70,3%
Returned to the soviet industry -36 630 or 10%
Sended to the Penal Batallions - 18 382 or 5%
Arrested by the SMERSH( were shoted or sended to GULAG) -11 566 or 3%
Sended to the hospitals( or died from the illness)- 5 347 or 1,4%

So guys you can see that there were no more 3% of probably shooted and no more 5% sended to the penal battalions.This was till 1 october 1944.

What’s after the war?
According to the latest researh NKVD archives:
Total quantity of repatriants and former POWs in USSR in 1 march 1946: civils ( who were slaves in german industry) -2.660.013 and former POWs - 1.539.475)
Returned to the place of living (i.e. at home) - 2.146.126 civils (80%) and 281.780 POWs (18%)
Sended to the Red Army -141.962 civils( 5%) and 659.190 POWs (42%)
Sended to the worker battalions (ingerer troops) - 263.647 civils (9%) and 344.448 POWs (22%)
Passed to the NKVD - 46.740 civils (1,76%) and 226.127 POWS (14%)

As you can see the figures of arrested POWs increased to 14% after the 1945. It could be explaned the big number of former POWs who collaborated with germans: so called pro-nazi Russian Army of general Vlasov and member of “police battalions” ( who did the atrocities above the civils in East and West Europe which shocked even the SS) and other “Nazi’s friends”.
http://stalinism.newmail.ru/plen.htm#t6
This figures are confirmed by the other contemporary russians historians like A.V. Megenkov , N.Petrov and ets.

P.S. and please guys ( espesially our UK friends) dont take the Beevors books about Eastern front LITERALY . He writes the very fascinating historical books , but i often noted as he gives the exceptional cases ( or germans rumours) as the common situation in Red Army.

Cheers

#6

Thanks Chevan, i have to say, i like beevors books but just because they give a lot of info in small cases as the figth for a building or a dialog between twho soldiers.

#7

I like Beevors book too dear Sturmpionier, i just have to say that we need to learn real history.

#8

But not everything in beevors books are lies.

#9

Sure , therefore he is one of my favorite author .

#10

Chevan,

Thanks for your detailed reply. In the source I quoted it was stated that “most of the [Russian] prisoners were shot [when liberated]”. Assuming the numbers that you quote are fact (I have no reason to suppose they are not) then you have laid that inaccuracy to rest.

It does annoy me that in the West we are taught from an early age that the war only really took place in the West and any portrayal of the Red Army is usually in a very negative light. The Russian people and the Red Army suffered terribly in the war but they are usually portrayed as the villains rather than the victims.

Thanks again for the information.

#11

Thanks a lot dear arhob1.
Sure you right about portrayal of the Red Army in the West. Usually its negative. The reason is obvious i think - decades of Cold war.
I just hope this is in the past, and we’ll never be on opposite sides in future. :wink:
By the way the common portrayl of Allies in the soviet sources was mostly negative also. They like to decrease the role of lend-lise and try keep the silence (or distorted) the importance of great sea warfire in the west.
I think we could improve the situation using this excellent forum.

My best regards.

#12

Hello Chevan,

Thanks for the statistics. I was trying to get it, but you got me there first.
Obviously, not “everyone” was shot. This is nonesence.

Do you know book by Valentin Kozhinov “Russian History. XX vek. 1939 - 1964”?
He has some numbers there. If my memory does not fail me, there was app. 500.000 people prosecuted between 1945 - 1952. And that is for all sort of crimes, including German colaborators. So it fits pretty well with your figures.

Best regards
Igor Korenev

#13

Hi Igor.
No i didn’t read this book while , but read it withou fail as soon as i find it in net.
I’ll try to search it on http://militera.lib.ru

#14

Hello Chevan!

I do not know if you can find it on Militera. Here ( http://kozhinov.voskres.ru/hist2/tom2.htm ) is just one part of the book that covers the war itself. It is rather general but a good read I think.
Besides I think this is one of the most honest autors I ever read.

Best regards
Igor Korenev

#15

Thanks a lot for the link Igor.

#16

Hello Chevan,

Do you know ex-soviet diplomat Valentin Falin? Have you read any of his articles and books? He has couple of books. One of the about the western front. I have not read them yet.

I think there is quite a bit of interesting things he write. The problem is that he was rather high in the comunist party ranks. So I think one should be a little careful about his evaluation of the history.

What do you think?

Best regards
Igor Korenev

#17

Do you mean his book “Second front”?
He wrote interesting poin there.
http://www.kp.ru/daily/23491.4/38644/ - here is his interview about touching problem.
Well i didn’t read this book while but i think it’s true. Do you know why?
The operation “Unthikable” really planned in London in the end of the war.
As it confirmed my friend Lancer44 the polish troops under command of allies REALLY planned to fight with Red Army in 1945. So honestly speaking i don’t know why God saved us from the Third World war in 1945.
May be it really was thanksful the storm of Berlin in 1945 which according of poin of Valentin Falin “convinced” our allies not begim the attack.
This was vary Danger time.

Cheers.

#18

Hi Igor and Chevan,

I did not confirmed “plans of Allies to fight Red Army”…

I just took conclusions from developments of II Polish Corps in Italy.

If Carpathian Lancers regiment, (my father served in this regiment), was re-armed with Sherman tanks, many of them 17 pounders, from Staghound AFVs.
If 2-nd Polish Warsaw Armoured Division was formed in Italy, between June and October 1945…

If … sheer strength of Polish II-nd Corps went from 60,000 in May 1945 to
more than 90,000 in December 1945…

If… well… something was cooking.

I’m too small to know what it was. But anyone can see…
I can add than in 1945 and in first six month of 1946, Home Army in Poland had more than 120,000 armed troops. Well, most of them under different badges -WIN, NSZ etc…
…But active and with some notable successfull actions against Red Army garrisons in Poland.

Conclusions…

Is yours…

And I share your opinion that thanks God we avoided WWIII…

Lancer44

#19

Hello!

It is kind of off topic for this thread. But anyway…

I actually printed out and looked trough the actual content of the plan for “Unthinkable”. I read it in russian translation and my plan was to find it in english and read the original.
If it is not a forgery, and it does not look likeit is, then we all were close to very serious sh*t.

Here is the photocopies of the “Unthinkable” (I have not looked at them): http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

Best regards
Igor

#20

Thanks my friend , we both are good understand why it was needed t increased the number of the Polish Home army in after the summer of 1945. It could be only one OBVIOUS reason. To attack the Red Army.