Russians admit fault

World War II General WWII Discussion
#1

They blamed the Germans when all along it was the Russians all along…What a Coverup!!

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/801514--russia-puts-documents-online-from-infamous-wwii-polish-massacre
Russia puts documents online from infamous WWII Polish massacre
MOSCOW—Russia’s state archives posted documents Wednesday for the first time on the Internet about the Soviet Union’s World War II massacre of more than 20,000 Polish officers and other prominent citizens.
The step was a gesture to Poland in a case that looms large in Polish history and has soured relations between the two countries for decades.
President Dmitry Medvedev ordered the documents posted on the archives’ website, reflecting a new willingness in Russia to accept responsibility for the killings at Katyn and elsewhere in 1940.
Relations between Russia and Poland have warmed following the tragic April 10 plane crash that killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski, his wife and 94 others on a flight to visit the Katyn forest in western Russia for a memorial ceremony on the 70th anniversary of the massacre.
But while Medvedev’s order was clearly intended as a positive gesture, the documents posted Wednesday were made public long ago and have already been published in Poland and Russia. Many more documents remain classified, despite dogged Polish appeals for the archives to be opened.
The documents now on the Internet were made public in 1992 by Boris Yeltsin, Russia’s first post-Soviet leader. They include a March 1940 letter by Lavrenty Beria, head of the secret police, recommending the execution of the Polish prisoners of war. The letter bears the signatures of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin and three other members of the Politburo.
The documents also include the minutes of a Politburo meeting on March 5, 1940, and a note from the head of the Soviet secret police in 1959 informing Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev that the Katyn files had been destroyed.
For 50 years, the Soviet Union blamed the massacres on the Nazi German forces who invaded in 1941. This remained the official line until Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev acknowledged Soviet responsibility in 1990, but Poles had always known the truth and the coverup fed animosity toward Russia.
Documents that remain classified include materials from an investigation in the 1990s that are believed to include the names of those who carried out the executions.
Russia also has refused Polish requests to recognize the executed Poles as victims of political repression.
Polish historian Andrzej Kunert said although the documents posted Wednesday were known to historians, the decision to post them on the Internet was significant.
“We can surely call the decision a breakthrough, because it seems that for the first time a website that is generally accessible to everyone in the Russian Federation publishes three very important documents concerning the Katyn massacre,” Kunert said on Polish TVN24. “It is certainly a very important step forward.”
Many Russians still do not know the truth about Katyn, and the release of the documents may play a positive role in helping Russians come terms with their own painful history under Stalin.
Within hours of the posting of the documents, nearly 700,000 Internet users tried to access the website, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported, citing a spokesman for the state archives. The website was responding slowly due to the heavy traffic.
Kunert stressed that Poles were still waiting to see the results of the investigation by Russian prosecutors, and especially the classified reasons behind the discontinuation of the investigation in 2004.
Russia’s Supreme Court took a small step in that direction last week by ordering the Moscow City Court to consider an appeal calling for the prosecutor’s decision to drop the investigation to be declassified.
The Memorial rights organization, which brought the appeal, welcomed the posting of the documents on the government website but said it was only a small step.
“The files of this criminal case must be disclosed and procedures observed, giving the Polish POWs executed in Katyn the status of victims of political repression,” Alexander Guryanov of Memorial said, according to the Interfax news agency.

#2

It never was really much of a cover-up…just a continuous, nonsensical denial…

#3

I heard about this on the radio.

#4

Is not a surprize, the russian guiltiness has been confirmed since the late 1980s. In my moderators days I had to battle daily the two russians here Chevan and the other guy because they always were denying this all the time, what a couple of morons.

#5

The Katyn issue was also brought up at the Nuremberg Trials, correct?

#6

Um, they’re not “morons” and I don’t recall any specific arguments that Katyn didn’t happen or that the Soviets didn’t commit the atrocity from them…

#7

I don’t recall that debate.

Rather than treating both Russians as morons (Okay, I suppose we could treat Chevan as a moron as, never having experienced the ball tingling thrill of slamming a big block V8 through the gears, he thinks Ladas are actually a car :mrgreen:, but Egorka has a highly disciplined intellect.) might it not be more accurate to see the views you say they expressed as being a product of their national background, including the education and wider culture they absorbed under regimes of varying rigidity which did not allow the more open debates common in “fully” democratic nations?

In much the same way that your national background disposes you to a particular view of the Falklands / Malvinas issues and conflict?

And Japanese to a particular view of the injustice of being bombed, conventionally or atomically, on the home islands?

There is a difference between being deceived or deluded and being a moron.

#8

Ummm… Is that second moron me? Just curious.

#9

Well, I naturally thought of Chevan as being a first class moron :wink: :smiley: so you just naturally came second :wink: :smiley:

However, if it makes you happier I’ll promote you to first moron. I don’t know how Chevan will respond to being downgraded. :wink: :smiley:

Or maybe we should leave it to PK to decide the order of Russian morons. In fairness to him, he didn’t distinguish.

#10

At the end of the day it could have been either of those regimes that committed the Katyn massacre.

Would I have been surprised if the German regime 1933-1945 committed that crime? - No.
Would I have been surprised if the Soviet regime 1917-1939 committed that crime? - No.

At last the truth is known. The Polish people have suffered so much from the Germans and the Soviets - let us hope that their future is peaceful.

#11

This is scandalous!!!
I am not settling for anything less than Supreme Commander of United Moronic Forces of the World.

#12

The truth was known long before the end of WW2 from Enigma decrypts…

#13

Yes you are right. Sorry what I meant was that for every one it is better when the perpetrator admits their crime. Then justice can follow … (said with a tongue in cheek)

#14

Don’t even dream about it:)
The PZ mixs things up. The first moron was Rus-Loh ( widely known in narrow circles in Russian Online).His point was that we endeed has not enough evidences to hand the crime only on NKVD. He’s left us a long time ago.The Second moron was me…:slight_smile:
But after the President Medvedev said it was NKVD for sure- what is sense to be the moron any more?

#15

I was deluded , promise…
Especially about Japnese , beeing bombed:)( althought i still think the better choise was to leave the japanes civils to rape them by the Red Army , instead to test the nuke over ther heads).
And i actualy saw only SINGLE moron over here who calls the Falkland islands as “malvinas”. That’s quite strange and i love this forum for this…
P.S.
And i still happy my Lada has no V8 that absorb the tonns of petrol and make the atmosphere dirty just like a tank’s engine.:slight_smile:

#16

And what did say the Enigma decrypts?

#17

You don’t know what you’re missing.

Still, I’m grateful to people like you who drive 50 to 65 kw cars, because the petrol you don’t use leaves plenty for people like me who think 240 kw is barely enough. Although currently I’m being environmentally responsible with a mere 180 kw while I toss up whether to put headers on the current carriage for another 20 to 30 kw or swap to a 220 kw V8 or a 240 kw turbo I6. :wink: :smiley:

As for tank engines, the Rolls Royce Merlin which powered a fair few tanks goes quite nicely in a car, although I think it’s a little overpowered at 2,250 kw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIj2GVfua84

#18

Which reinforces my point about all of us being products of our own culture and education system etc.

Regimes like the USSR and post-war Japan were less open to internal questioning and external information about bad aspects of their war conduct and their education systems produced people with a distorted view of what happened.

But that’s not unique to authoritarian regimes. We do it here, too, without most of us realising it. http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/fight-free-of-anzac-lest-we-forget-other-stories-20090422-afb5.html

#19

They were IIRC the German reports of the Katyn grave site, where they were excavating the bodies. Since the Germans evidently didn’t think they were responsible for the murders (and they wouldn’t lie in their own decrypts - the system was believed to be totally secure after all). If they weren’t, that only left the Soviets.

#20

But why then the GB didn’t present that document on Nurenberg trial?If they know for sure and war was over - what was the reason to cover the Soviet crime?