Do somebody hear about particiation of Soviet fliers in the Korea in 1950-53?
Yes, it’s been quite well documented in Stalins Secret War (the name might be inaccurate?). Although the Soviets had their aces, many were shot down by the USAF. Also covers the incarceration of USAF Sabre pilots in the Soviet Union, where they were interogated for information on the Sabre. Sadly for them, as their being the Soviet Union was such a huge secret, they were never returned home after the war.
Recently the Russian Gerneral Staff of Army declassified the data about the participation of Soviet aces in Korea. This is quite amazing information IMO.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/acepostwar/skyknight.html
Its noticed that since 1950-53 the soviet had conducted 1872 sky combats and shoted down 1 106 american aircrafts ( 650 of them were the F-86 “Sabre”). Soviet loss - 335 fighters.Mig-15
The highest score Soviet pilot is Sutyagin Nikolay Vasiljevich - 21 victories.( 15 of them were Sabres)
BTW the famouse soviet WW2 ace Ivan Kojedub also took part in the preparation of fliers groups in the Korea. He didn’t took part in the combats .
Guncamera of Mig-15 3 march of 1953. Shoting down the F-86
What are you talking about?
Sorry, Chevan, I have no written references and am going from what I have read and seen on TV documentories in the past. However, I rather think 335 Mig 15s (if those figures are correct) could be considered many.
I think that the best was Yevgeny Pepelyayev who shot down 19 US planes over “MiG Alley”.
Well, if you were in command of the Soviet ‘mission’ to Korea and you had lost 335 of your Migs to American and British fighters, wouldn’t you want to tell ‘Uncle Joe’ that you had killed twice as many of their planes?
Sory mate the Y.Pepelyayev was the second right after the Sutyagin ( 21 victories)
The Pepelyaev and his Mig
The list of best soviet aces is here
http://www.avia-hobby.ru/publ/sovaces/sovaces_5053.html
1.Sutyagin ( 21 victories)some sources calls 22 victories.
2.Pepelyaev(19)
3.Shykin and Oskin (15)
4.Shebestov (13)
5.Smorchkov (12)
…
Sure 335 is many who is doubt. Like and 650 Sabres.
I don’t wish to overstimate here the soviet aces and disparage the americans pilot.
I just found the statistic of soviet victories ans loses are very interesting.
I wish to notice you here i will considered only Soviet pilot, not the N/Korean and China ( which also fought on the Mig-15 and had a much less medium skill of combat experience.
They had a more rate of losses from the US fighters.
Cheers.
Sory mate the Y.Pepelyayev was the second right after the Sutyagin ( 21 victories)
Thanks for the correction.
I wish to notice you here i will considered only Soviet pilot, not the N/Korean and China ( which also fought on the Mig-15 and had a much less medium skill of combat experience.
They had a more rate of losses from the US fighters
No question that is the key of the losses, the korean pilots probably were ride mules before get in the Mig-15 cockpit.
792 MIg were claimed as destroyed by the USAF.
Well this is look like true.
But from this number of Mig only 335 were piloted by the soviets flyers.
Certainly compare the leve of Chinas r Korean pilots with americans pilots is sensless.
But i wish to say there were a own Korean aces
For instance Kan Jon Duk 
Who shoted down 10 enemies aircrafts since 1950-53. But this is already another thread.
BTW Panzercnaker did you hear about “Black Tuesday of Strategic Command” ( 23 october of 1951) the combat where groupe of 44 Mig-15 had meeted the large groupe of B-29 escorted by F-80 and shoted 13 B-29 and 3 F-80, soviet loses was 1 (!!!) Mig-15?
Do not wish to Pooh-Pooh on anyones parade chaps, but check this out:
Review of archived and previously classified documents released after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 disputes the numbers of claims by U.S. pilots, stating that the VVS lost only 345 MiGs.[citation needed] In turn the Soviets claimed to have shot down more than 1,300 U.N. aircraft including more than 650 Sabres. However, USAF records revealed that there were only about 660 Sabres deployed to the Korean theater in the entire war. This fact makes the Soviet claims highly dubious. USAF records also show 224 F-86s lost to all causes, including non-combat. Many air engagements are corroborated by both sides, but with conflicting claims of kills
Actualy Bravo during the Cold war it was a common tend to exceed its own victories and reduce the enemies. Its’ not surprising together with common war there were a information war too.
For instance http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/acepostwar/pilot/sutyagin.html
Until now in THE USA they attempt to touch up the total of war. In the Encyclopedia of aviation (New York, 1977 ) it is noted that in all American pilots in the time of war biased 2.300 “communists” aircraft (USSR, China and PDRK ), the loss BY THE USA and their allies - 114. Relationship - 20:1. It is imposing?
However, the most serious American specialists even in the 1950 yy, when total losses it was hide difficultly (see the book “AirForces - the decisive force in Korea”, Toronto - New York - London, 1957 ) they noted that USAF only in the combat struggles lost about 2.000 aircraft, loss of “cominists” aircraft they then evaluated more modestly - approximately into 1.000 aircraft. However, these numbers are distant from the truth.
so 2300…
then 1000…
now already 729 ( as it said honest Panzerknacker)…
You could easy find the contradactions dear Bravo.
Moreover today in the Russain archives was opened the datas of loses of the both China’s and N.Koreans Mig-15 - 231 only was shot down by the UN airforces.
So you could calculate the total loses of Mig-15 in Korea- 335+231 = 566 (!!!)
So as could you see american datas could be easy refuted by the Russian archive datas.
So where is true? 
The poblems of WIKI article is that it based mostly on the Cold war datas which as we have see softly saying not all times objective.
The Russian Archives were opened after the Cold war ended in 1993-96 and i don’t see any reason to doubt in material ( simply becouse i don’t see the reason to falsify it today).
I could admit the figure of 650 hited F-86 is not correct ( it’s not easy right to define the model of hited fighter through the gun camera). But honestly speaking i strongly doubt in the figures of total loses of 224 F-86s in Korea which you take from Wiki too ( and as you know Wiki is not the first-hand sources).
May you show us another source. Could we learn the true?
Cheers.
One thing is to claim 792 aircraft…and other is actually shot down that number,the real figure was lower.
some link with helpful info.
Thanks a lot mate for the links.
As could we see in anyway the UN forces lost in at least 3 times more arcrafts then the USSR/China/PDRK and this is characterly.
Moreover as could you se the figures of total lost F-86 in you source is 275 but in Wiki was called “only 224”.
This fact just proved in US even today are not known real figures of lost in Korea.
Cheers.
If you find sources unreliable, then why not look for motive?
Considering American losses and loss of face, accross the whole spectrum of their forces during this war, why bother to cover up the number of planes lost?
As I previously implied, is it not feasible that the Soviets invented the high kill rate against the Sabre in order to justify their own losses and avert any punishment for their incompetence.
I did see a TV documentary on this subject in recent months. In the main, it was comparing the merits of the two aircraft. However, it did discuss the Soviet contribution. One of the things remarked on was how the skills of the North Koreans had suddenly increased. That was when the American pilots first began to suspect they were flying against Soviets. The previous kill ratios for opposing sides were not refuted. The kill ratios (and the disappearance of downed American pilots) were a part of the reason that the comparisons were being made between the two aircrafts.
In the end, it’s a matter of faith. One either accepts the information or not. When there is conflicting information - you pays your money and you takes your choice!
Moreover as could you se the figures of total lost F-86 in you source is 275 but in Wiki was called “only 224”.
This fact just proved in US even today are not known real figures of lost in Korea.
I have to agree, they probably didnt, Not a single source agree with the other :shock: , check this in spanish, just 184 F-86 lost by every cause and 792 Migs claimed as destroyed, the USAF calculate that the actual figure of MIg destroyed were 40-45 % of the claims.
did see a TV documentary on this subject in recent months. In the main, it was comparing the merits of the two aircraft. However, it did discuss the Soviet contribution. One of the things remarked on was how the skills of the North Koreans had suddenly increased. That was when the American pilots first began to suspect they were flying against Soviets.
You mean the National Geographic TV show ?
I saw those, very good one.
The motives is obvious IMO - the Cold war. Don’t need to repeat at you that during the war the information of loses had a political and propogandic effect. Thererofre it hard to consider it objectively.
Look for instance to the Battle of Britain in 1940-41 where the official figures of of both Germans ans Britains aircrafts were discriminated in TIMES. Just after the war althougt we don’t know the exact figures but analisys of some facts let us to conclude the Britain loss less aircrafts then the Germans.
Considering American losses and loss of face, accross the whole spectrum of their forces during this war, why bother to cover up the number of planes lost?
As I previously implied, is it not feasible that the Soviets invented the high kill rate against the Sabre in order to justify their own losses and avert any punishment for their incompetence.
I have no idea what do you mean as “Soviets invented the hight kill rate”.
I have to agre the 650 hited Sabres is not correct figure ( as i said its hard to discern Sabre from the simular fighter for instance Shooting Star from the distance about 700-400 metres through bad quality Gun camera obgective). But the total figure of hited UN aircraft - 1 106 is very close to the true, becouse it confirmed by the official US datas.
Look for instance at the Panzerknacker’s source.
The UN lost only Jet fighters : 275 Sabres + 298 F-80 + 42 Meteors = 615
This is MORE then all losted Mig-15 in Korea - 566 from the Russian archive datas.
The total lost of UN is about 3 times more (!!!) then the all aircrafts of USSR/CHINA/DPRK
This is obvious thing.
Certainly not the all UN arcrafts were lost in the air combats it was also resault of AAA-guns fire. But the mostly of was the loses during the air battles.
So you could find the statistic of loses very interesting. So called “air superiority” of UN forces was mostly die to the superiority in total quantity of aircrafts but not in quality. During the air combats UN forces had a more rate of loss.
But this facts absolutly don’t disparage the professionalism of UN pilots - they piloted not only new kind jet fighter but also and “WW2 raritet” like P-51 ( in compare the soviet pilot flyed mostly in newest Mig-15).
But who had the real problems - the crews of havy piston bombers like B-26 ( about 150 were lost) and epesially B-29 ( about 100) . This was a real shock for them when they found the so called “superfortness” was absolutly weak against speed Mig-15 whith its power 37-mm and two 20-mm guns. There were a cases when a SINGLE burst of gun-fire of Mig-15 destroed the B-29.
I have no any intention to reduse the role of excellent UN pilots but i have to conclude the soviet pilots not was less strong them americans, moreover there were a lot of cases when they were more lucky and professional.
I did see a TV documentary on this subject in recent months. In the main, it was comparing the merits of the two aircraft. However, it did discuss the Soviet contribution. One of the things remarked on was how the skills of the North Koreans had suddenly increased. That was when the American pilots first began to suspect they were flying against Soviets. The previous kill ratios for opposing sides were not refuted. The kill ratios (and the disappearance of downed American pilots) were a part of the reason that the comparisons were being made between the two aircrafts.
Well it seems i saw this film too.
Certainly both F-86 and Mig-15 was the best fighter of its time. And each fighter has its power sides. I read the book of soviet veteran of Korea where he wrote about cuptured Sabre. He was in delight from the wide and hight cocpit and espesially he liked the excellent electronic equpment of F-86. The Mig-15 till 1954 had no the reliable electro- horizon sustem and its radar was the worst.
But he wrote the power 3 Mig guns had a much more hited effect then 6 mashin-guns of Sabre. This is immediatelly had feels on its skin the crews of UN bombers
In the common it hard to say what fighter was the better. The all was depends from the personal experience of pilot.
In the end, it’s a matter of faith. One either accepts the information or not. When there is conflicting information - you pays your money and you takes your choice!
I don’t think this is matter of faith - the history is not religion.
I have no reasons don’t trust the contemporary Russian sources and we found from US sources of lost they very close to the true.
I wish to thank you for the refutation of soviet claims at the 650 hited F-86 , but at same time we found the total number of shoted UN aircraft is very reliable.
Just only mutial carefull stady of both side information could let us to learn the true - not the matter of faith IMHO.
Cheers.
Why would you think ‘faith’ should only applied to religeon?..there are lies more lies and statistics.
I am enjoying our little discussion. I have little time to continue today, but I will endeavour to find more information and, of course, if I find yours to be correct, I will be happy to concede. 
As things stand I need a lot more convincing.
Always, If you please
I think we both could enjoy this thread 
Cheers.