Soviet Union Defeated by the Nazis!

This from our Moscow correspondent - in hiding:

Today we witnessed Stalin sign an article of unconditional surrender. Those close to him say that he has asked if he could be allowed to go quietly.
The Nazis have taken Moscow and are consolidating in all theatres of operations, here in the East. What next…Today the USSR - tomorrow the World? Is there anything the West can do to defeat the Nazi war machine. At the moment it appears unstoppable. Will the entry of the USA into the war make any difference now that the Soviets are defeated, or are they to be too busy facing the Japanese, following the recent attack on Pearl Harbour?

What can be done?

Just for fun boys. :smiley:

The reference to the recent attack on Pearl Harbour sets this some time in December 1941, and means America is engaged, and enraged, with Japan.

As for America being too busy with Japan, that’s not an issue. America never put more than 15% of its WWII effort into the Pacific. If it doesn’t fight Germany and everything else goes as it actually did, it can flog Japan without getting onto a full war footing.

Japan wants eastern Siberia. Does the unconditional surrender permit this or is it just a surrender to Germany? If Japan has to fight for Siberia it’ll leave that alone until it’s completed its southern campaign. There won’t be any reason why the southern campaign would be run one little bit differently as it was all about grabbing resources and then cutting Australia off from the US while the US will still act exactly as it did. The Pacific War will be fought exactly as it was against all Allied forces.

This assumes that Germany doesn’t co-operate substantially with Japan at sea in the Pacific, which is unlikely as (a) They werent’ that co-operative at the best of times. (b) It’s a major drain on German resources to fight that far from home with substantial forces. (c) There’s nothing in it for Germany, unless it’s stupid enough to declare war on America when it doesn’t need to (which was the situation in 1941, when it actually did, so maybe it will).

What happens when Japan is defeated? Germany won’t have got any advantage in its own nuclear program by conquering the USSR. Following Japan’s defeat, Germany is now facing atom bombs from the US, with none of its own and no defences against nuclear weapons. If Britain has not been conquered America can deliver nuclear weapons anywhere important to Germany. If not, it’s then a question of how long it takes to develop a carrier launched weapon, as it won’t get any working missiles in the 1940’s without a German surrender and Werner von Braun etc. :smiley:

What USSR territory does Germany occupy? Does the USSR surrender apply only to Russia or to some or all other republics? The answers to these questions will determine the size of the occupation force and Germany’s ability to undertake other operations.

Does Hitler declare war on America? If he does, America loses the opportunity to adapt to the new situation without going to war against Germany. However, there is no need for it to go to war in Europe or the Mediterranean as its main interests will be protected by its navy engaging with Germany’s navy on the remaining routes important to America. Which won‘t be European or Mediterranean trade routes. America can concentrate its existing and new naval forces close to its homeland with obvious logisitical advantages against German naval forces operating far from home. Germany is at a substantial disadvantage and can’t do America any real harm.

The first strategic problem following the defeat of the USSR is to keep Germany out of Iraq and the Middle East oil fields.

Let us say, for arguments sake, that:

Operation Barbarossa went ahead, as planned, on the 15 May. There were no exceptional spring rains, the Luftwaffe were able to complete their airfields on time, the allocation of motor transport to divisions had been completed, and the Balkans campaign was allowed to go ahead without delaying any other operations etc. etc.

Hitler gave his generals a free-hand to accomplish their tasks and all objectives were achieved. The German forces occupied all territories up to a defensive line running from Astrakhan in the south, following the length of the Volga to the Divina and north to Archangel.

Stalingrad was surrendered by Stalin, and occupied.

The offensive of the Siberian divisions in December 1941 was repulsed with heavy casualties being inflicted upon them.

The rest of the world has been continuing as is described by history, unless, and where, effeted by the above changes.

My thoughts when opening this thread, were to explore what would, or could, or might have happened if the USSR had been defeated. The outcome will require a little imagination shaped within the realms of possibility.

If Germany declares war on America in December 1941, and assuming (1)Britian isn’t invaded which is unlikely if only for logistical reasons and (2) America and Britain still hold to the ‘Germany first’ policy, Hamburg and Dresden are on track to get the first A bombs in August 1945, with or without the Normandy invasion. Or maybe America delays until it has more A bombs, and starts in 1946.

In this scenario, the substantial extra forces presumably* available to Germany by not being ground down in Russia, as it actually was, don’t matter as they can’t do anything to respond to the A bombs. Whether Hitler would surrender before Germany was the same smoking ruin it actually was is a separate issue.

  • Or maybe Germany demobolises after defeating the USSR in 1941, apart from Western defence and substantial occupation forces in Europe and the USSR.

One presumes thta Churchill would continue to prosecute the war against Germany. If so, then Germany would have far more resources at its disposal to combat Britain and the allies. This would have far reaching effects on the war in Norht Africa and Burma. The US had only just entered the war, and, therefore, were unready to launch an offensive in Europe or North Africa. Britain would be unable to ‘leach’ North Africa of troops to send to the Far East. Hence, both theatres of operations would become much more precarious than even they had been.

Would Britain have made a deal with Germany? Chiurchill has been reported to have been a little surprised by Roosevelts decleration that he would only accept unconditional surrend, at Casablanca, in 1943. Would Britain have negotiated with a Germany free of the Nazis?

Would Churchill have reached a negotiatied agreement with the Germans before then if the war was not going well?

Would CHurchill have been sacked and someone such as Halifax have taken over and negotiated a peace deal?

Maybe not.

If the lion has clearly caught its prey and is busy devouring it, why annoy it pointlessly by throwing stones at it? Germany would take a long time to digest its eastern conquests.

If not at risk of invasion, Britain’s problem was to keep its sea lanes open to allow it to survive economically, both for British import and export industries.

Maybe Germany and Britain come to an accommodation that allows each to live with the other. Britain can live with Germany exploiting eastern Europe, in which it has no real interest. Germany can live without being a naval force in the Atlantic, which had no bearing on its ability to exploit eastern Europe. If this happens, America will trade with everyone in sight, as indeed its captains of industry generally did anyway until December 1941. And maybe a little later, under the blanket.

If so, then Germany would have far more resources at its disposal to combat Britain and the allies.

I’d still be concerned by the size of the occupation armies required in Russia. Ejecting and exterminating millions upon millions of people requires a lot of men and resources, as does protecting the exterminators from guerrilla actions generated by these actions. And guarding the lines of communication exploiting those conquests.

This would have far reaching effects on the war in Norht Africa and Burma.

True.

But it goes beyond Burma to all British possessions in the Far East. Which Britain will duly lose in any event if it doesn‘t alter its dispositions there.

North Africa in this scenario doesn’t matter greatly, apart from prestige; control of the Mediterranean; and access to the Middle Eastern oilfields which are the crucial issue as they were important for Britain.

With Germany in control of Europe, Britain would be better off abandoning North Africa and re-deploying those forces to home defence or to its Far Eastern colonies. If the latter, it might alter the course in Malaya etc. Many of the main forces in place at the time of the Japanese attack and almost all the reinforcements actually sent afterwards were woefully green. Some had never even handled a rifle during their couple of weeks of training before embarking. These forces were never even remotely as well equipped or led or battle hardened as the North Africa forces, which had a serious chance of beating the Japanese.

If North African British and or Commonwealth forces defeat, which was quite possible, or even just hold the Japanese in Malaya, the pivot of the Japanese advance is neutered. Britain retains Singapore as a pivotal naval point. Whether or not Britain can actually put much there in the way of ships is less important than the need for the enemy to deploy its naval forces as if Britain can, which seriously hampers Japan’s other operations.

The US had only just entered the war, and, therefore, were unready to launch an offensive in Europe or North Africa. Britain would be unable to ‘leach’ North Africa of troops to send to the Far East. Hence, both theatres of operations would become much more precarious than even they had been.

Only if Britain hangs on in the Med. Churchill always said (although I think it was at best well-intentioned bullshit) that if Australia was invaded by a substantial Japanese force he would abandon the Med and send all those forces to our defence. (Like it’s that easy to disengage at divisional and corps strengths, and load troops and materiel on ships under bombardment and happily sail away unscathed to fight another foe, with air and naval forces also intact. FFS!)

Would Britain have made a deal with Germany? Chiurchill has been reported to have been a little surprised by Roosevelts decleration that he would only accept unconditional surrend, at Casablanca, in 1943. Would Britain have negotiated with a Germany free of the Nazis?

Would Churchill have reached a negotiatied agreement with the Germans before then if the war was not going well?

Would CHurchill have been sacked and someone such as Halifax have taken over and negotiated a peace deal?

Although there are reports of him wavering early on, I don’t think Churchill would have made peace with Germany or any other active enemy of England while he had breath in his body and England had a chance of defending itself. The man was an outdated, arrogant and dangerous prick in some respects, but he had more guts and determination and unwavering commitment to the English cause that just about anybody else, although some other occasional solid leaders like the Queen Mother come to mind.

As for waverers like Halifax and Butler and various elements of the English ruling classes who were rather fond of Herr Hitler, they might have produced a negotiated peace if they had gained the ascendancy. I don’t know enough about the intricacies of English political and constitutional arrangements to know how easy or how hard that might have been for them at the time.

If the lion has clearly caught its prey and is busy devouring it, why annoy it pointlessly by throwing stones at it? Germany would take a long time to digest its eastern conquests.

If not at risk of invasion, Britain’s problem was to keep its sea lanes open to allow it to survive economically, both for British import and export industries.

If nothing else, Churchill was a man of action, and believed in taking the fight to the enemy.

Maybe Germany and Britain come to an accommodation that allows each to live with the other. Britain can live with Germany exploiting eastern Europe, in which it has no real interest. Germany can live without being a naval force in the Atlantic, which had no bearing on its ability to exploit eastern Europe.

I doubt this could have been achieved without the removal of Churchill first.

I’d still be concerned by the size of the occupation armies required in Russia. Ejecting and exterminating millions upon millions of people requires a lot of men and resources, as does protecting the exterminators from guerrilla actions generated by these actions. And guarding the lines of communication exploiting those conquests.

This might have been carried out by reservists and allies, in the first instance, and by the recruitment of Russians as auxiliaries. For example: fifty thousand Russians fought on the German side at Stalingrad.

North Africa in this scenario doesn’t matter greatly, apart from prestige; control of the Mediterranean; and access to the Middle Eastern oilfields which are the crucial issue as they were important for Britain.

It would have been a long way to transport the oil if the Suez Canal had been lost. It would have also removed other options for operations in the Mediteranian.

With Germany in control of Europe, Britain would be better off abandoning North Africa and re-deploying those forces to home defence or to its Far Eastern colonies. If the latter, it might alter the course in Malaya etc. Many of the main forces in place at the time of the Japanese attack and almost all the reinforcements actually sent afterwards were woefully green. Some had never even handled a rifle during their couple of weeks of training before embarking. These forces were never even remotely as well equipped or led or battle hardened as the North Africa forces, which had a serious chance of beating the Japanese.

I don’t see how the situation of the surrender of the USSR in December 1941 would have changed the situation in Malaya and Singapore, at least in the beginning. The surrender of Singapore came within a couple of months. Would that have been enough time to withdraw from North Africa (if one wished to abandon the Suez canal) and train troops to reinforce Malaya and Singapore effectively?

If North African British and or Commonwealth forces defeat, which was quite possible, or even just hold the Japanese in Malaya, the pivot of the Japanese advance is neutered. Britain retains Singapore as a pivotal naval point. Whether or not Britain can actually put much there in the way of ships is less important than the need for the enemy to deploy its naval forces as if Britain can, which seriously hampers Japan’s other operations.

I would think that, with the resources now available to Rommel, it would be incredibly difficult for Britain to hold on in North Africa.

Only if Britain hangs on in the Med. Churchill always said (although I think it was at best well-intentioned bullshit) that if Australia was invaded by a substantial Japanese force he would abandon the Med and send all those forces to our defence. (Like it’s that easy to disengage at divisional and corps strengths, and load troops and materiel on ships under bombardment and happily sail away unscathed to fight another foe, with air and naval forces also intact. FFS!)

That just wasn’t going to happen under Churchill. He would have lost all credibility. he might as well resign before this can happen and save some face.

As for waverers like Halifax and Butler and various elements of the English ruling classes who were rather fond of Herr Hitler, they might have produced a negotiated peace if they had gained the ascendancy. I don’t know enough about the intricacies of English political and constitutional arrangements to know how easy or how hard that might have been for them at the time.

Churchill could have been challenged as leader of the government also, there could have been a call in the ‘House’ for a vote of confidence against him. If he had lost North Africa, this would probably have happened. It would have been difficult for him to resist the pressure to resign as he could not afford to bring down the coalition by digging his heels in.

I have difficulty in visualising how Brtiain could win in North Africa, and how Churchill would have been able to abandon it. The Western Desert, was buffer between the Axis forces and the Suez in Egypt. Perhaps the British forces could have maintained the defensive line from the north coast through El Alamein to the Quatara Depression? Troops and equipment for North Africa were transported around the Cape and through the Suez Canal, perhaps that was the way?

Probably not. If the USSR doesn’t surrender until late December, and even ignoring the impossibility of disengaging, say, a couple of divisions in North Africa with Operation Crusader in full swing, I doubt that the necessary troops could have been transported, landed, become operational, and moved to where they were needed in time to make any difference in Malaya. They really needed to be there by early November at the latest and in position to meet the initial Japanese landings.

Then again, a couple of battle-hardened infantry divisions already semi-acclimatised to a tropical climate and under the leadership of someone like Richard O’Conner (who by then was a POW) could have made a huge difference to the defence in Johore and even Singapore. Apart from being battle-hardened, they were far more cohesive units than the motley crew actually used in Malaya. But they’d still need to be there by the end of January 1942, which doesn’t seem likely.

Yes, and following the advice of Percival, as per his earlier assessments, maybe, something might have been done.

The problem with what if scenarios, is they spawn myriads of other what ifs. This thread is no exception and this is criticism. I do believe for the Germans to gain victory in 1941, they would have needed to avoid two very important campaigns. The Balkans and Crete. These two campaigns delayed the German timetable for Barbarossa and just as importantly decimated the Luftwaffe transport arm from which it never recovered.

Regards digger

Mate, ain’t that the truth!

But, in a way, it just mirrors the endless unexpected things that happen in a real war. Except with the benefit of hindsight we know what happened.

This thread is no exception and this is criticism. I do believe for the Germans to gain victory in 1941, they would have needed to avoid two very important campaigns. The Balkans and Crete.

In this scenario, Bravo32, who seems to have gone into a long sleep lately - are you still there Bravo32 ? :smiley: -, did say at #3:

Let us say, for arguments sake, that:

Operation Barbarossa went ahead, as planned, on the 15 May. There were no exceptional spring rains, the Luftwaffe were able to complete their airfields on time, the allocation of motor transport to divisions had been completed, and the Balkans campaign was allowed to go ahead without delaying any other operations etc. etc.

I’d be inclined to put it a different way: Assume that Germany, for a change, lets the Italians try to finish all by themselves what they started all by themselves. The worst that can happen is that Italy surrenders a year or two earlier :D, with no impact on Germany’s assault on Russia.

These two campaigns delayed the German timetable for Barbarossa and just as importantly decimated the Luftwaffe transport arm from which it never recovered.

I don’t know about the Luftwaffe transport decimation in the Balkans and Crete.

Could you expand on that?

I’ll dig up the info of Luftwaffe transport losses, Ju-52 production figures and the rammification of ASAP.

Quite simply the JU-52 losses over Crete directly impacted on the Luftwaffe ability to provide supplies to the German forces from the early stages of Barbarossa. These losses were never made good as the doomed men encircled by Soviet forces at Stalingrad would discover.

The conquest of Crete was a major turning point in the war.

Regards digger.