At the height of Hilter’s rapid overstretching of the German war machine was the battle of Stalingrad. A costly battle that at Hitlers will was “fought to the last man” and wiped out the entire German 6th army. The Germans never recovered from this defeat and were in constant back peddle mode from then on. I think this was the biggest single factor in deciding the outcome of the war, that is if you had to pick one specific situation. One would have to imagine the 6th army could have been put to better use.
Any thoughts?
I’ve often thought that the battle for Stalingrad was more about the name of the city than it’s position. And the idea of tying down entire Corps in the street to street fighting, when perhaps it would have been better to encircle it and starve the populas out, was nuts.
The 6th Army should have encircled the city (with maybe 3 Divisions) and advanced deeper in to Russia.
The whole original plan did not envisage taking Stalingrad, the original was to cross upriver, but alas once it started the obsession quickly overtook a certain person.
The whole 1942 plan revolved aroung the Caucus and Oil fields. The Germans not only threw away the 6th Army but about 1/4 of their ebtire mobile force as well.
Allthough very crule, I would have to say it would have costed very few men and mobile units if the Sixth Army encircled the city and thus starving the whole city until they gave it up. Hitler wanted to take the city because of it’s name and nothing else. The biggest problem at Stalingrad was that the Luftwaffe could not resupply the Sixth Army so fast as needed and thus cripling the Sixth Army. The Russian Airforce shot down th Junkers 52 like ducks and thus destroying a lot of the frate cappebality of the Luftwaffe.
Hitler should have gone after Moscow and thus crippling the morale of the Russian Army, if done with a fast Blitzkrieg like in the Low Countries.
Henk
The distances in Russia are too great for the logistic train to be able to keep up with the spearhead.
Agreed, at this point in the war the Germans only held the land they were standing on. Moving onward when already horribly overstretched meant 2 things: 1) supply lines would only be made more difficult to establish and maintain
2) the possibility of being flanked and encircled greatly increased
The German Army was outside the suburbs of Moscow when Hitler orderd them to hold of from the attack on Moscow and focus on Stalingrad. the thing that crippeld the German Army was the bitter cold of the Russian winter that cought up with them and they were not equiped for the winter and thus the Russian Army could cutch up with the advancing German Army. The Germans did not rely on trains when they ocupied the Lower Countries or did they?
Henk
They were not equipped for the winter due to logistic considerations.
It doesn’t matter whether they relied on trains or not in the low countries – you can drive completely across the low countries in a few hours, and walk across them in a few days. The distances involved in Russia are orders of magnitude higher. Your logistics lag in the low countries is a matter of hours, in Russia it could be days or even weeks.
Yes, your logistics does lag more in Russia, but do you think the Germans could ever have captured the Russian home land, because I do not think so because the country is just to great for any army to ocupy even if the German Army captured Moscow they would never have captured the whole country. Hitler should have used the Russians to his advantage and let them help him fight the war instead of being big shot and try to take over Russia.
What do you think MoS?
Henk
There were many Russians that initially viewed the Germans as ‘liberators’ from Stalin. Dont forget the Russians were still aching from the ‘Great Purge’ some years earlier and still for the most part quietly hated, but feared Stalin. What i am trying to say is this: If Hitler could have taken out Stalin, Russian resistance would have died out on the spot. Hitler made a big mistake by not sending the 6th army to take out Stalin and his cronies. Without Stalin the Russians would have been Germany ‘friendly’ if you will.
AM_R.A.D.6th I never knew that there was any Russian resistance against Stalin. Well yes they could have helped Hitler a great deal in his tride to ocupy Russia. Yes I do know about the Killing of officers in the Red army and the Killing of all the others Stalin thought was against him. I think it was something like 50 000 people all in all. Please correct me if I am wrong. Stalin was allso a big dictator wich are almost never mentioned but you always hear about Hitler but almost never about the people he killed and all the other things he comitted.
Henk
an estimated 20 million died from un-natural causes (not including combat deaths) during Stalin’s reign…
Stoat is right, I have read estimates that vary from 20 to 30 million Russians dying during the ‘Great Purge’ all caused by the hand of Stalin.
Taking into account how many Russians Stalin killed, you would have to think the Russian soldiers had more to fear from Stalin than from Germany. I truly believe if the Wehrmacht could have taken Stalin ‘out’ early in the campaign, the Russians would not have resisted any further. It is documented fact that in the initial phases of Barbarosa the Russian peasants in the occupied lands cheered the German troops when they arrived.
Yes, I remember that Stalin was not liked much by the peasants and yes some did think of the Germans a libaraters but the German Army did not try to get the Russian peasants on their side, no they did horribale things to them and that is why they started to go more and more to Stalin’s side and not to Hitler’s side.
Still Hitler was stupid with his ruthless ways of handeling the Russian peasants and the whole war against the Russians.
Thank you MoS for helping me with the numbers of people killed by Stalin.
Henk
A big strategic mistake was not to utilise the welcome that the German troops received in the west of the USSR to their advantage. The plan was that they were going to be used as forced Labour since they were , according to Nazi philosophy, subhuman.
That was the plan, and Germans really do like sticking to the plan. By the time they started the foreign legions, it was too late and the goodwill had all but disintegrated.
If the Germans had treated the local population well, and had encouraged them to collaborate, they would have had a very large and willing manpower resource.
Edited to fix a mistake, and to insert the word “forced”
The only trouble was, as MOS has stated, they Nazi philosophy did not allow for any treatment of untermensch other than harsh treatment.
If it had been a ww1 style German government I think the outcome would have been very diffrent.
Hitlers shortsightedness and his inability to see the big picture assured the victory for the Allies. The day the Germans stepped foot into Russia was the day Hitlers fate was decided.
Yes, correct.
Hitlers shortsightedness and his inability to see the big picture assured the victory for the Allies. The day the Germans stepped foot into Russia was the day Hitlers fate was decided.[/quote]
I personally believe the day thet Hitler became chancellor his fate was decided. Everyone knew what he was going to do, everyone let him do it. Stalingrad was just one of the results of this.
awesome :lol: