The 1st Soviet peace proposal to Finland 41

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#1

A quote from Egorka:

Here is the specific story about a peace proposal to Finland in the begining of August 1941. Finland to my knowledge did not even want to explore it. There were no any “manouvering”. The answer was given on 31 of August that “this can not be concidered ar a peace proposal”.
You are trying to tell us that it is because Finland was dependant on the German food supply. But there is an opinion that it also Guderian tanks rushing to Moscow that “convinsed” Finninsh goverment to bet on Germany.

What do you say?

This was intended for Fennica but since it is buried in the main thread and I found something from “the Finnish side”:

August 4 1941 Stalin has written a letter to Roosevelt with a peace offering to Finland. USA is asked to be a messenger.

August 18 The peace offering is delivered to the Finnish ambassador, Hjalmar Procope, in USA.

Procope and the deputy secretary of state, Sumner Welles, discuss the offering. According to my source, Welles says that SU is willing to discuss peace with Finland and to sign a new peace treaty. SU would be willing to check the Moscow Peace treaty (I guess this means ceding some land).

Welles then says that he’s just a messenger. Procope then asks if the Western powers are willing to guarantee Finland’s independence if Germany loses the war. Welles isn’t willing to discuss this.

According to my source the Finnish government gave an undetailed answer because they saw no chance for separate peace at this time while the German forces were gaining victories.

August 29 - 30 Finnish patrols from 4th and 8th Divisions enter Viipuri, the capital of (Finnish) Karelia.

#2

Thanks for opening this thread. It is a good idea to pinpoit some specific issies and approach them one by one. Keeping the interconnection between them at the same time.

Ok. For the fist, my ords that you quoted were reply on the statement like “Finland would make peace and leave assosiation with Germany only if USSR was willing to make peace and agreed to talk.” It is not the exact words but the message was clear.

Ok. So I wanted to show that the picture is much more complex than that. In August the things were not going well for USSR and Stalin was willing to negotiate for peace with Finland and give territory in return. The Germans were informed by Finns right away about this proposal and were told that there is nothing to worry about.

You (Fennica?) replied that it is because Finland depended on the German grain supply. Right, Finland did have food shortages. The question is if this FORCED finninsh govermnet to deny the proposal. I doubt it. In August it all looked like that Germany were going to win. Most of the goverments in the world (including USA) were expecting the fall of USSR in a matter of weeks. That is why I said that “Finland bet on Germany in order to fullfill it’s goals - security through incorporation of the defeated enemy’s territory within the new strategic borders.”

In this light, for me it looks like that Finish goverment would have rejected the Soviet peace proposal regardless of it’s content. Because they though that there is no need in negotiating if 4 weeks later they will take what they want free of charge. Because as you self say: “the German forces were gaining victories”.
Remember that they did not want to explore the posibility and never asked for terms or such of the proposal.

Am I mistaken? Please feel free to critisise.

I have some more facts for the timeline of the peace proposal. I will post them to ammend to the event mentioned by you. I just need to get to my books/materials.

#3

[QUOTE=Egorka;119255]Thanks for opening this thread. It is a good idea to pinpoit some specific issies and approach them one by one. Keeping the interconnection between them at the same time.

I agree.

Ok. So I wanted to show that the picture is much more complex than that. In August the things were not going well for USSR and Stalin was willing to negotiate for peace with Finland and give territory in return. The Germans were informed by Finns right away about this proposal and were told that there is nothing to worry about.

My source has nothing on Germans knowing about this proposal. 2 days later Germans asks Finnish troops to encircle Leningrad from the west and north. Mannerheim declines. The German ambassador, Waldemar Erfurth understands that the Finns want nothing to do with Leningrad.

You (Fennica?) replied that it is because Finland depended on the German grain supply. Right, Finland did have food shortages. The question is if this FORCED finninsh govermnet to deny the proposal. I doubt it. In August it all looked like that Germany were going to win. Most of the goverments in the world (including USA) were expecting the fall of USSR in a matter of weeks. That is why I said that “Finland bet on Germany in order to fullfill it’s goals - security through incorporation of the defeated enemy’s territory within the new strategic borders.”

It was Fennica.

The Finnish main attack was still going on with the objection of Viipuri and the old border in the Isthmus.

In this light, for me it looks like that Finish goverment would have rejected the Soviet peace proposal regardless of it’s content. Because they though that there is no need in negotiating if 4 weeks later they will take what they want free of charge. Because as you self say: “the German forces were gaining victories”.
Remember that they did not want to explore the posibility and never asked for terms or such of the proposal.

We can’t say that for sure as the Soviet proposal didn’t have anything concrete.

Am I mistaken? Please feel free to critisise.

I don’t have exact data about the grain deliveries so I cannot jugde HOW much this affected to the Finnish decision. We also do not know the exact land cessations the Soviets would be willing to make as it would have to be negotatiated. There were also German troops in the North. The worst case scenario would have been there in the flesh: German and Soviet troops clashing on Finnish soil.

I highlighted the guarantee issue because this is also important. What if The Soviets manage to inflict huge losses for the Germans and stop their advance totally? Would this change the Soviet tone totally?

There are still lots of questionmarks.

I have some more facts for the timeline of the peace proposal. I will post them to ammend to the event mentioned by you. I just need to get to my books/materials.

Ok.

#4

Hi,
this is what my source sais:
“Finland and the siege of Leningrad 1941-1944” by N.Baryshnikov
Soviet ambassador in USA Umansky reportedthat S.Welles informed Finnish ambassador Procope that if “Finnish goverment will turn on the path of peace , then according to the american goverment knowledge the USSR is ready to sign a new peace treaty with territorial concessions. (refference 158)”. Thus Finnish goverment was given a real chance to get out of the war getting without fighting what Finnish prewar propaganda was stating as the main military aim of the war.
But the Finnish goverement did not seem to get happy about it. Helsinki did not rush with the answer to the US state Department. How Ryti expressed it in his unpublished memoirs: “I gave an order to attentivly investigate this issue”. (refference 159)
By what means was this issue supposed to be “investigated”? The German attache Blucher was immidiatly informed about the American mediation. This was done by the Finnish minister of foreghn affairs Witting who assured the German diplomat that “all the rumours about peace are completely unfounded” (refference 160). Besides that Blucher wrote in his memours that “about this important issue” he “was informet repeatedly previously” (refference 161).

Refferences:
158 - Переписка Председателя Совета Министров СССР с президентами США и премьер-министрами Великобритании во время Великой Отечественной войны 1941—1945 гг., с. 302.
159 - КА, Risto Rytin kokoelma. Rytin muistio, IV. Sotasyyllisyysoikeudenkäynti, mappi 1. Kansio 28.
160 - Blücher W. Suomen kohtalonaikoja. Porvoo-Hels., 1951, s. 247.
161 - Ibid., s. 251.

The German ambassador, Waldemar Erfurth understands that the Finns want nothing to do with Leningrad.
Why do you this? Do you have a quote?

We can’t say that for sure as the Soviet proposal didn’t have anything concrete.

Yes, it was not specific. On the other hand it was long lasting. IIRC the story about the peace proposal to Finland lasted until December 1941. Have to double check to be sure though about the time frame.

I don’t have exact data about the grain deliveries so I cannot jugde HOW much this affected to the Finnish decision. We also do not know the exact land cessations the Soviets would be willing to make as it would have to be negotatiated. There were also German troops in the North. The worst case scenario would have been there in the flesh: German and Soviet troops clashing on Finnish soil.

No one argues that it would have been easy. Germany would then attack Finland one way or another.

I highlighted the guarantee issue because this is also important. What if The Soviets manage to inflict huge losses for the Germans and stop their advance totally? Would this change the Soviet tone totally?
There are still lots of questionmarks.

In August 1941 they were waiting for German tanks to roll on the Red Square. At that point of time that was the most probabale scenario for everyone. You seem not to comment on this like it had no influence on the Finnish descisions.

#5

This matter seems to be already well thought through.
If I may only add that yes, most definetly Finnish goverment continued/postphoned negotiations based on German military success. Should the Germans really gain great upper hand, Finns could have broken out of the war without loosing territory, but gaining it.
But it is also healthy to remember that German planes used Finnish larger airfields, Baltic sea was dominated by Germany and there was a large German army in Lappland.
Breaking from war would have meant that we could have had German invasion coming.

#6

So this statement is far from being correct. Right? :slight_smile:

Fennica: “You could have made a peace with Finland any time. It was a possibility, due to the fact that we were not Allies to Germany.”

#7

Hehe, good one.
No, I still think that.
Problem with the peace would have been assured Soviet invasion, and very likely German invasion.
So, though peace would have been possible, it would have stripped away any German support against the next Soviet assault.

#8

[QUOTE=Egorka;119671]Hi,
this is what my source sais:
“Finland and the siege of Leningrad 1941-1944” by N.Baryshnikov
Soviet ambassador in USA Umansky reportedthat S.Welles informed Finnish ambassador Procope that if “Finnish goverment will turn on the path of peace , then according to the american goverment knowledge the USSR is ready to sign a new peace treaty with territorial concessions. (refference 158)”. Thus Finnish goverment was given a real chance to get out of the war getting without fighting what Finnish prewar propaganda was stating as the main military aim of the war.
But the Finnish goverement did not seem to get happy about it. Helsinki did not rush with the answer to the US state Department. How Ryti expressed it in his unpublished memoirs: “I gave an order to attentivly investigate this issue”. (refference 159)
By what means was this issue supposed to be “investigated”? The German attache Blucher was immidiatly informed about the American mediation. This was done by the Finnish minister of foreghn affairs Witting who assured the German diplomat that “all the rumours about peace are completely unfounded” (refference 160). Besides that Blucher wrote in his memours that “about this important issue” he “was informet repeatedly previously” (refference 161).

Refferences:
158 - Переписка Председателя Совета Министров СССР с президентами США и премьер-министрами Великобритании во время Великой Отечественной войны 1941—1945 гг., с. 302.
159 - КА, Risto Rytin kokoelma. Rytin muistio, IV. Sotasyyllisyysoikeudenkäynti, mappi 1. Kansio 28.
160 - Blücher W. Suomen kohtalonaikoja. Porvoo-Hels., 1951, s. 247.
161 - Ibid., s. 251.

My source says that this proposal was to be “utmost confidential” meaning that the Germans should not know about it. I have to check that Witting thing from somewhere.

Of course this proposal was discussed within the Finnish goverment.

Why do you this? Do you have a quote?

Only 2 days after the Welles/Procope meeting the German Ambassador in Finland, Erfurth, is sent to meet Mannerheim about Leningrad. That what I wrote about Erfurth is a direct quote from my source. It may be in different form in some other piece of work.

Yes, it was not specific. On the other hand it was long lasting. IIRC the story about the peace proposal to Finland lasted until December 1941. Have to double check to be sure though about the time frame.

I have no data about how long this proposal was in offer.

No one argues that it would have been easy. Germany would then attack Finland one way or another.

Exactly. And there still was a Soviet invasion to be expected.

In August 1941 they were waiting for German tanks to roll on the Red Square. At that point of time that was the most probabale scenario for everyone. You seem not to comment on this like it had no influence on the Finnish descisions.

You are forgetting the Fenno/Soviet issue. This was still unresolved. Besides, it did have influence on atleast some Finnish cabinet members. That’s why the Finns gave Welles an undetailed answer.

The Soviet tone changed eventually until the 4th Strategic offensive was halted at Tali-Ihantala 1944.

The Soviets didn’t even bother to investigate the 1st Finnish peace feelers during Winter War stating that the only Finnish goverment they (SU) recognised was the O.W. Kuusinen’s one - the so called Terijoki goverment.