What and who are holocaust deniers? :?:
Wiki-strike incoming!
Edited to add: Can we also merge this with the existing holocaust thread to achieve some measure of tidyness. I’ve moved it here as it was incorrectly originally posted in ‘off-topic’. My modly privileges don’t give me the power to perform the next stage.
I thought it was Irving who thought that an alien race of lizards was secretly running the world, or is that another nut?
Aye. The convicted forger of historical documents, David Irving, is the author of many popular references cited in the Barnes Review and also on of the most ‘respectable’ of the holocaust deniers.
Edited to clarify: David Irving is a well known holocaust denier. David Icke appears to be the lizard bloke. Both producers of equally valid historical works, I suspect.
Are you not thinking of David Icke?
Yep that’s the one. It must be his anti-Semitic babling that made me think he was Irving.
In 1999, he published a book claiming that the world had been taken over by a race of reptiles called the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that some prominent people were in fact lizards, including George H. W. Bush, the Queen Mother, and Kris Kristofferson. He has also claimed that members of the Bush family perform human sacrifices; that Henry Kissinger abuses children; and that Queen Elizabeth II is a satanist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
That last bit will not go down well with the CofE.
Some of that I can understand but why in the name of feck is he so worried about Kris Kristofferson? :shock: :roll:
Takes all the fun out of a game of Spot the loony doesn’t he? 
SO what or who ARE the Holocaust Deniers then? :?:
Thats what I asked Firefly. Why all the continued nasty remarks? But thats ok. I understand.
Would one be considered a holocaust denier if he(she) denied the Romans killed 4 Billion Jews? Of course. But do any of you believe it?
Did the Romans kill 4 billion Jews? What was the population of the world at that time? It has only just reached 6 billion. Was it a systematic killing to remove an ethnic group or part of conquest of a region?
You have thrown in a comment without clarification and you still have not answer other comments directed at you.
The most comprehensive answer I have found to date is provided in a link on the second post in this topic. Perhaps I should reproduce it in full here as some people are not only too idle to look the answer up themselves, but too idle to click on a single link. They are probably also too idle to read it even if reproduced here. Why bother if you can’t even spoon feed someone information?
Horse and water come to mind!!! :roll:
Perhaps if you clicked the link, you’d find the answer spelt out in black and white, quite possibly with the aid of diagrams too. In answer to the particular question quoted, the answer is no. That is because the accepted usage of the term ‘holocaust denier’ refers to ‘one who denies the holocaust’. The use of the definite article is important, as it means the word’ holocaust’ refers to a particular event, namely the industrialised attempt to exterminate the jewish people undertaken by Nazi Germany. That would exclude activities by the Romans.
You seem to have phrased the question as a rhetorical statement though. This gives the misleading impression that you believe that someone who believes that the Romans killed 4 billion jews is a holocaust denier. Using information from UNRV History it appears that Rome came to exert major influence over the land corresponding approximately to present day Israel in about 64 BC. The land was conquered by Arab forces in 638 AD, taking it from the Byzantine Empire. This means that a force that could be in some way described as Roman controlled Judaea / Syria Palaestinae for a period not exceeding approximately 700 years. To kill four billion Jews in that period (this assumes that the Jewish population was concentrated in Judaea), the Romans would need to have killed 5.7 million Jews each year. Thats a number comparable to the present day Jewish population of the state of Israel. These numbers are implausible. Thus, we have reasonable grounds to doubt the claims until some evidence is offered.
Crab,I agree with you. The same could be said for ‘6 mill’ in 1945. What was the world pop. of jews then,and now? As far as the Romans under Emperor Hadrian killing 4 billion jews,That is not from me.That is from the ‘Talmad’. From the Jews themselves. I believe the Talmud is the foundation of Jewish religious teachings. Yes it is hard to believe 4 bill. So why should one believe the 6 mill? I am just asking.
Because there are plenty of people who lived through the horror of the camps that can testify to massive numbers of deaths?
Because there are massive piles of shoes, spectacles etc taken from the Jews preserved in Auschwitz?
Because the Nazis were a bunch of pricks who would have been more than happy to kill more than 6,000,000 Jews and who wrote about machine gunning thousands of Jews in a single day (several times - both Jews and Russians)?
Also, Id like to add that the Nazis also killed 12 million plus Russian civillians and countless others, not to mention about 1/3 of the non-Jewish Polish population.
In my opinion they should be included too.
I will give this a similar numerical analysis. Applying conservative estimates, the industrialised extermination policy ran from 1941 to 1945, although it would be foolish to restrict the officially endorsed period of Jew-killing to this period. That is a three year period to kill six million jews. Six million has been chosen as a common estimate of the number of Jews killed in the holocaust. That works out as 2 million per year (nearest million). At the time of the holocaust, the world jewish population was between 17 and 18 million. That would require killing at most one eighth of the world Jewish population per year over a three year period. That’s a huge number, but plausible for an industrialised policy of extermination.
Compare 1/8 - 1/9 jews killed every year for three years with between ten and 100 times the world jewish population killed every year for seven hundred years for a plausibility check. That is the first difference between the two examples.
The second subtle difference is that there is meticulous documentation relating to the final solution, a significant kink downwards in the jewish population of the world, and significant first hand accounts from survivors, guards and liberators of the camp, notwithstanding BDL’s points above.
My last piece of personal evidence comes from my time at school. Because of its location, approximately half of the pupils were jewish. Not all were practising. Almost everyone had lost a grandparent / great aunt or uncle in the holocaust. This is distinct from those who died fighting, died of illnesses or allied bombing - purely those bundled onto trains heading east, never to be seen again. One of my closest friends was under the impression until the last few years that only his paternal grandfather had been killed during the holocaust. This turned out not to be the full truth. He visited his maternal grandmother’s family home in the Czech Republic. His great grandfather, and five of his grandmother’s six siblings were disappeared overnight during the 1940s. The grandmother had never spoken of the siblings, talking only of the great grandfather who had stayed behind to keep the family business running while her and her mother fled. The first the current family knew of this was a set of unfamiliar names next to marks on the wall indicating the growth of children.
I would be interested to see where this figure of four billion comes from. I suspect you don’t read ancient hebrew, or have access to a Talmud, so it must be from a secondary source. My initial suspicion is that four billion is a distinctly non-biblical number. The Old Testament tends to have reverted to ‘innumerable’ or ‘a thousand times a thousand’ when numbering large quantities and the Talmud would be expected to follow similar trends in the original ancient hebrew.
Finally to Firefly - the Wiki Holocaust pages do include those other groups, ethnic and otherwise. I think the distinction is drawn between those killed as part of industrialised extermination and those killed through mass scale inhumanity. As I have said before, although it will bear frequent reiteration, the peculiar horror of the holocaust was the application of industrial techniques to achieve a genocidal aim. This should not detract in any way from the many other horrors visited upon humanity by Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. One should also bear in mind that although the Nazis inflicted horror on the Soviets and vice versa, it was individual human beings who perpetrated and endured them.
tweaked for clarity!
I’m having a bit of trouble finding the part in the Talmud that says this. Could you give some indication of where in the Talmud that figure can be found?
As I understand it Hadrian was a Roman about 2000 years ago and built good walls. Unfortunately they have not been kept up to scratch and foreigners are getting over them. Do you think that is what Blitz meant in his earlier post? 
The Talmud was written a number of years prior to this, so either the period is wrong or the info is wrong or I am waffling as normal. :oops:
Not only that, they were obsessively up to date with their paperwork, and we have documented evidence provided by them as to the numbers killed in particular areas and where those people come from. Tally this together with pre- and post-war census data and you get another number. Add in the witness statements from survivors (not by any means all Jewish - many others including a number of allied PoWs were held in the same camps) and those from the people who liberated the camps, coupled with the forensic evidence left behind. These can all be examined, and each time you will come to a figure of approximately 6 million, give or take rather a lot (more likely to be an underestimate as in places entire extended families were exterminated). On top of that you have to add the 2 million or so others (mainly Roma, with some Communists, Homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholic Priests, etc.) exterminated in the camps and the very large numbers (roughly 4 million) Soviet PoWs who were executed or deliberately starved to death. There is a very great deal of supporting evidence indeed for all these crimes, and this was in fact used at the Nuremburg Trials.