The Holocaust

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#1

Apperently, there are some people with questions about the holocaust.

So I invite them to post these questions so we can all see them, and discuss them in a rational manner.

Having served in Germany and visited the camps of Bergan Belsan (I lived in the army camp just down the road) and a few other sites on the long death march of the Jews from the East to the West as the Nazis retreated I hope to bring something to what I beleive will be a great debate.

So question away. All views accepted if they can be backed up, same rules as any other debate really.

#2

There is the classic Richard Dimbleby newsreel documentary about Belsen, filmed just after the liberation. Anyone who has any doubts should get hold of a copy and watch it.

#3

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4445811.stm

#4

http://www.historytvdocumentaries.com/HW.html#taaavailabilityanchor

Check “Heroes - Programme 8
THE MEN WHO LIBERATED BELSEN”

http://www.historytvdocumentaries.com/HW.html#HW8

#5

Obviously the first question to answer about the holocaust is “did it happen?”

In answer yes it did. Millions of souls were tortured, starved and gassed to death.

And that is the truth.

A small group of cretins on this world may believe that it didn’t happen but it did.

#6

Of course it did happen. Only a fool would think something this big was some kind of conspiracy.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/wannsee.htm

This is where it was committed to paper, a conference chaired by Heydrich. Incidentally there was a rather good BBC play of it a few years ago, unfortunately I cant remember what it was called.

#7

There are also those who agree that it happened but that there were “only” a few tens of thousands who died & most of these from illness!
I have a Polish friend who was there when it happened & he reckons the official figures are more likely an understatement, as many Poles disappeared who weren’t Jews, including members of his family.

#8

YES…it did happen

#9

Agreed, if anyone sufferred the Poles sure did. They got it from the germans and Russians, then the Germans then the Russians again. UK and France went to war for them and did absolutlely nothing for them in 6 years of war. You would think that they would still resent this.

#10

All the Poles I have met tend to be grateful for the help that they did get. It’s a glass half full situation (more like one tenth full, I suppose). The UK and France had no binding reason to give Poland the support that they did. Compared to the Czechoslavakian solution, the Poles were well supported internationally even though they suffered more than any other nation of the time.

Edited to add: Grateful for the help they got, and realise that there is no way that Poland was going to end the war un-occupied by Germany or Russia, regardless of the activities of British, Empire and Commonwealth forces.

#11

The poles are also great with me!,we also have our poles,britishman,and they are good aas your poles!!,they weren’t jews,but they were poles!,and i want to be a pole!!.Pole is polish,right?.

Our poles are grateful because we give them money and work and a place to live.

#12

Thanks for the link Dani. I watched the whole documentary in a sixth-form General Studies class some years ago, but it is the kind of thing that sticks with you.

There is also an excellent BBC “docudrama” about the Wannsee Conference featuring Kenneth Branagh amongst others. It is based on the various minutes and transcripts that have come to light and because of this it does not suffer from overly florid screenwriters but it has a terrible matter-of-factness about it that makes it utterly compelling.

#13

The BBC docudrama is called “The Conspiracy”, available from Amazon among others, and a very powerful film it is too.

#14

‘Conspiracy’ was an excellent drama, very chilling. I have actually read the Wansee transcripts very interesting reading.

#15

Ah yes, thanks for that. I shall keep an eye out for it.

#16

This might be only slightly related but… I would like to hear some comments about following claims one heard from time to time…

Some say/conclude:

  1. Allied bombing caused german food supply to collapse: camps, civilians, military… several weeks before end of the war.

  2. If german civilians had trouble to survive alive, how did the people in the camps lasted several weeks basically without food if they were very weak to begin with?

  3. Wouldn’t the only logical reason be, that people in the camps were pretty standardly feeded, but only lack of food caused by allied bombing made them look so bad on the tapes/pictures.

  4. There are lot of documents, where for example Himmler orders good food rations for contentration camps because they were badly needed labour for german military production.

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Not my view, but decided to bring it up. :slight_smile:

Another one that comes to mind is following:

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1010-1020 jews deported/killed from several french cities using all the technological methods possible

1182 jews expelled from france using all the technological methods possible

1220-70 jews forced to wear a patch (several cities)

1290 jews expelled/killed from England using all the technological methods possible

1290 jews expelled from s-italy using all the technological methods possible

1367 jews expelled from hungary using all the technological methods possible

1394 jews expelled from france using all the technological methods possible

1485 jews expelled from warsav/krakow using all the technological methods possible

1497 jews expelled/killed from portugal using all the technological methods possible

…

and so on…

Why is it that while germany tried years to expell jews, and only after that took action - they are baaaaaad - but not other european countries doing the same with much more rapid speed and efficient - only germans need to apologize endlessly?

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I feel that some people are just having a sort of “backslah”, because all these negative things are so germany/jews related.

One main reaso for germany to start sterilization process was because they were worried that America had too much lead on sterilization and race laws - several american states having already set such laws much earler than germany.

It almost seems like that (this is sort of tasteless to say, excuse me):

  1. Germany was “late” on many things
  2. They were too efficient
  3. They lost the war
#17

To my knowledge, a program of expulsion, no matter how wrong I personnaly may feel it is, or was. In no way equates to a programme of conciously determined extermination.

One may be wrong, the other is quite frankly, pure evil.

#18

The particular horror of the holocaust is the application of industrial methods to achieve the extermination of a race. I believe previous anti-jewish purges and pogroms were aimed at removing Jews from a particular place or country, be it by displacement of people or killing them. This would not yield a final solution to the jewish question. The final solution is the extermination of the jewish people. This was the aim of the holocaust, not simply displacement of population.

None of this renders the pogroms, other anti-semitic purges, genocide of any type or ethnic cleansing any less unpalatable. One of the greatest failings of the international community that has taken place within my lifetime was the Rwandan genocide. Never again?

#19

Well, you may say never again, but Zimbabwe is doing a good job of it right now.

However, to the best of my knowledge they are not putting thousands of people in trains every day and factory killing them.

#20

After the holocaust, the world said ‘never again’. I quoted it to illustrate the emptiness of the promise. During the Rwandan genocide, it was suggested the ‘never again’ meant ‘never again will Nazi Germany be allowed to exterminate Jews in the 1940s’. If, in the course of my service, I am involved in Uncle Bob of Zimbabwe and a Storm Shadow meeting unexpectedly, I’ll consider that a personal contribution to humanity. I believe we should be more active in such things, and will shortly be putting my money where my mouth, so to speak.