So in you rmind the average finn is more honest then the awerage russian one?
Is it not sort of rasism?
-OK, first off, I meant to type 420 000 karelians.(out of 4,1 million Finns).
I have no idea where you managed to pull Reds into this, and I honestly cannot understand why you speak of Karelians going back to Karelia. Then they would have submitted themselves to Soviet rule!!!
Us Karelians fled because of that reason alone.
And from where did the `Civil war´ came into this?
Is not you the man who wrote that during the Finnish civil war the White terror have no marcy for the Red guard and their supporters?
SO why do yo think that the Soviets , backing to the Eastern Karelia will more kind toward YOUR KArelians?
SO in the end the the push them out was more human decision then to let the new Civil war be started.
Germans were split in half. Soviet did untold damage to them then. THey lost everything.
It was a Allied decision ( not the Soviets) to split the GErmany.
And hardly they lost as much as the USSR ( 25 mln of lives).
At least the Germany has been saved as a Nation. Great NAtion that today is among EU.
I doubt the many states and nation could be saved in a case if Nazic won the war.
remember about it.
The many peoples and ethnical groups could be annihilated LITERALLY.
But reconstruction was helped on both sides of the Germany. We got nothing. Only paid to the one who gave us all the suffering.
-I say that is adding insult to the pain.
This is not true that you got nothing.
The Finland got a great investition due to the right foreigh policy.
The Finish goods have been welcomed in the both West and Eastern markets , and west even compete with Soviets for influence at Finland via the economical yieldings.
Finlans benefited a lot of this situation.
The whole half of Soviet printing industry have been printed on the finnish paper.This is much better then so called "reconstruction " in GErmany.
Soviets gained immensly in the end. Control over all of Eastern Europe and annihilation of Germany.
Oh so GErmany have been annihilated?
They were also the only one to turn to.
I doubt that Yanks could be said to be communist, despite they were allied to you.
But Yanks were in Allied sade and made a hell of job for our common Victory.
Their were no COMMUNIST , but they were our ALLY.
Like the Finland for the GErmany till the 1944.
Now you feel the difference.
Just that NATO is non-issue with me. I don’t like it, nor do I trust it.
Good. SO we have a points for future agreements and good relations.
Hmm, when I say “stalins history”, it means the fabricated numbers, the events which did not happen or events which have been twisted so hard, they no longer look like they were.
-One example is the “mainila shots.” (Just one of many examples.)
Therefore i never USED a Stalinist figures.
The All figures that i used were from Wiki or from the Norway press ( the Egorka linked).Or from the Russian archives that as you might remember- enough well correspond to the finnsih ones ( as we saw it in a statistic of lost aircraft during the Winter war)
Terror came from injustice within that times society. From inside.
Reds started the killings, targeting “upper class” people and eventualy anyone whom they thought might have been part of higher status.
Whites showed no mercy as they killed the Red Guard members, sometimes through executions, sometimes by letting them starve.
-Point was that Red Terror came first and White terror was a result from that.
Hard to say what terror come first indeed.
During the civil war, the White Army and the Red Guards both perpetrated acts of terror. According to earlier views, both sides had agreed to certain rules of engagement, but violations occurred from the start, most notably when Red Guards executed 17 troops at Suinula village on 31 January, and when White Army soldiers executed 90 troops at Varkaus on 21 February. After these incidents, both sides began carrying out revenge executions at local level, a trend which escalated to massacres and terrorism.[
SO hardly the White terror was an “equivalent” answer.
The Whites shared the terorr very well.
Beside there were a certain differences at a teror at all.
The Red Guards executed those they considered the main leaders of White Finland or as class enemies, including industrialists, politicians and major landowners. The two major sites of the Red terror were Toijala and Kouvola; there 300-350 Whites were executed between February and April 1918. The White Guards executed Red Guard and party leaders and those who participated in the war and Red terror. During the peak of the White terror, between the end of April and the beginning of May, 200 Reds were shot per day. The White terror hit particularly strongly the Russian soldiers who fought with the Red Guards.[
SO if Reds killed the “class enemies” then the Whites murders had the ethnical orientation .
The WHite killed firstly the Russians.
Anyway the White terror exceed it in times.
In the end Reds had real reasons to rebel, and society was made better after Civil War, granting justice to all.
-First off; After Russia fell into chaos, Finns realized that it was time to become independent. Finland had very separate and own Civil War which had little to do with Russian Civil War.(Reds against Whites, that was the same.)
But it wasn’t legitime reason to capture the part of Russian terriroty in 1920-21, right?
German Baltic Division was sent to help to fight against Reds, and they did a very good job in that.(being trained soldiers with good equipment)
By sending this help, Germany hoped to create an Allie from the North, but Kaisers Germany fell soon thereafter, so aid did not have the desired affect in the end.[/
quote]
Now we see where the finish-german cooperation come from.
Actually you both two natural allies.
Born to be the allies:)
Even as you mention the germans with honor.
[quote]
Soviets were nowhere near. Red Russians were not under the Soviet flag, if I remember correctly. They were mearly Reds.
If you remember- they were mostly Finns.
The russians were no MORE the 10 000 among the 90 000 of the Red Guard.
and you killed your Kins very well.
But Soviets had hoped that Finland would join Soviet Union on their own.
And why the Finland should be joined to the USSR?
To start the new civil war , again?
Don’t yo think the Stalin was an idiot who don’t remember the strong finnish resistense to the Reds in 1918-1919?
Benefits were great. Someone to trade with and someone willing to sell weapons, albeit weapons gained from beaten enemies.
Also, the trading vessels were a lot safer.
“enemy of my enemy”- is most suited in this case.
Right, so “friend of my enemy” Finland describes a lot in SOviet external policy during the 1939-40.
Because Soviets demanded strategically important areas. Because similar demands had been presented to all Soviet neigbours.
Not to all of SOviets neighbourgs, this is wrong.
As i know the China have not received nothing simular:)
The only areas of former russian impare have been demanded. Like Western Ukraine , cuptured by Poland in 1920 due tho the failures of bolshevics policy and Bessarabia.
And the Finland that got the Pechenega as a “military booty” in 1920.
Finland was a young as an independent nation. That is the most likely reason for denying all territorial exhange.
Why.
In this case the young nation show the good will toward neighbourd and undertstanding of thier points.
Soviets suggested not bad ex-change in sense. More then twice squares lands should be passed to Finland .
Imagine that you have a hostile giant next to you, which tells you how to run your own nation and threats all the time. This is what the intermin Peace was like.
THen another Giant comes and says that he is about to attack the hostile giant…
Especially if Another Giant make to you the suggestion that you can’t refuse, right:)
He says - join with me in war against the hostile Giant or be oocuped?
So you have no choise, right?
This is your point?
