The Poles on the fronts

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

And also do not forget my friend that Polish troops was fighting not as much with Red Army as with the Ukraine armed groups of peasants and patrisants in so called “eastern territories of Poland”.

Honestly speaking, never heard of that. Sounds interesting. Do you have some article about that?

@Chevan

And do not be a greates hypocrite to tell us about “Polish easter territories”.
It was an only Ukraine;)

I used “Polish eastern territories” just to emphasize the fact that these lands officially belonged to Poland in 1939. It doesn’t refer to the people who lived there, because I know that Poles were not a majority there.

@Chevan

Oh mate this is a great way
In such way we soon would descaver the fact that the it was a Rome impare who was the ONLY ancient occuper of the Europe.
AAnd do not forget about Spain with Britain who occupied the America five centuries ago…

That’s why I prefer not to dig so deep. It is pointless.

@Chevan

Oh what a great forces has meet the Red Army;)
They could killed 737 soviet soldiers and oficers.

There are 2 calculations:
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter4_7.html
http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov2/04.html

737 or 1173 Soviet killed in action.

Not much as for 13 days of war.
But when we recall that Poles were ordered to act only in self-defence (that means they were not allowed to attack any Soviet unit on their own initiative). There were only 25 battalions of BDC on eastern border, they had to face about 466516 Soviet troops (according to one of the sources) supported with thousands of tanks and planes.

Interesting fact is that about half of soviet losses were inflicted by polish troops during the battle of Szack on 28th of September.
And guess what… Poles were attacking. Soviet 52nd Infantry Div. lost about 500 KIA and 1600 WIA.
Just one offensive action of polish forces.
So I were you, I wouldn’t laugh so loud.

@Chevan

Oh sorry man i didn’t knoe you had the relatives in here.
However may i ask you whay they called the Ukraine as its home?

No problem.
They stationed somewhere close to lithuanian border. I assume they called home the place where they were born. They were polish.

pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

737 or 1173 Soviet killed in action.

Not much as for 13 days of war.
But when we recall that Poles were ordered to act only in self-defence (that means they were not allowed to attack any Soviet unit on their own initiative). There were only 25 battalions of BDC on eastern border, they had to face about 466516 Soviet troops (according to one of the sources) supported with thousands of tanks and planes.

Interesting fact is that about half of soviet losses were inflicted by polish troops during the battle of Szack on 28th of September.
And guess what… Poles were attacking. Soviet 52nd Infantry Div. lost about 500 KIA and 1600 WIA.
Just one offensive action of polish forces.
So I were you, I wouldn’t laugh so loud.

I/m not laughing mate.
I never doubt the poles could fight effectively ( especially under professional leadership).
I just want to notice you the simple fact that from about 250 000 of polish soldiers who were captured by the Red Army resisted only 20 000 ( as you wrote) i.e. less them 10%.
This fact proves that the Resistence were episodical- the Poles did not fight with the Red Army as they fight with Germans ( and we know why - the special order of Polish command)
This fact just prove the very importain thing- the Poles themself did not consider the Estarn territories as the their native territories that worthwhile to defend.
This was an alien land- where the native population were mostly anti-polish.
Therefore they did not want to fight with Soviets.

[1000ydstare]

Chevan, the German offensive in to Poland was quick and over, prior to the British being able to do much.

As stated, there WAS a party of some 10-12 men in Poland from the British Army. They would have been sent far in advance of the German Attack, otherwise they wouldn’t have got there in time.

Besides which, in 1939 exactly how fast could the British have sent a Brigade or even a Battalion to aid the Polish?

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

I/m not laughing mate.
I never doubt the poles could fight effectively ( especially under professional leadership).
I just want to notice you the simple fact that from about 250 000 of polish soldiers who were captured by the Red Army resisted only 20 000 ( as you wrote) i.e. less them 10%.

I cannot agree. The number of polish soldiers who fought against Red Army is unknown. Polish historians give a very wide numbers: from 10 to several dozens of thousands.

@Chevan

This fact proves that the Resistence were episodical- the Poles did not fight with the Red Army as they fight with Germans ( and we know why - the special order of Polish command)
This fact just prove the very importain thing- the Poles themself did not consider the Estarn territories as the their native territories that worthwhile to defend.

Forgive mate, but where the logic connection between the order and the attitude of polish soldiers toward the eastern provinces of Poland???
Your conclusion is not an exaggeration, its huge logical mistake.
If polish didn’t consider these land as their homeland, they wouldn’t had put 25 battalions at the border.
For God’s sake Chevan, where do you take these ideas from?
[/QUOTE]

[Drake]

@1000ydstare

Chevan, the German offensive in to Poland was quick and over, prior to the British being able to do much.

As stated, there WAS a party of some 10-12 men in Poland from the British Army. They would have been sent far in advance of the German Attack, otherwise they wouldn’t have got there in time.

Besides which, in 1939 exactly how fast could the British have sent a Brigade or even a Battalion to aid the Polish?

To even try such an operation through the skaggerak would’ve been sheer folly. The Royal Navy assetts used in that operation would’ve been eaten alive by the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine. I always wondered what kind of false hopes the poles had on the british and french reassurances for quick help. I admit that it’s easy to argument from todays point of view but imho the situation as it developed after molotov ribbentrop was pretty much predictable, with a possible exception on the part of actual soviet military intervention, but even that would have been in a modern situational analysis.

[Kovalski]

I’m not an expert, but as far as I remember Poles expected allied assault on french-german border, generally in Western Europe.

[1000ydstare]

Which would have achieved?

The forces that went East, stayed in the East.

France, Belgium and Holland (not to mention the British Expedidtionary Force) was smashed up by a completely different set of Armies. Some of whom stayed, some of whom then went East.

Maybe, this attack didn’t matierialise due to the fact it would have been suicide?

[Drake]

@Kovalski

I’m not an expert, but as far as I remember Poles expected allied assault on french-german border, generally in Western Europe.

That’s precisely my point, how could they expect that? Were they promised something like it or were they just so foolish to see something that wasn’t there.

[Egorka]

@Drake

That’s precisely my point, how could they expect that? Were they promised something like it or were they just so foolish to see something that wasn’t there.

They were indeed firmly promised that and the Polish goverment, unfortunately, mistakenly trusted it almost foolishly.

The attack was promissed on the 15th day after the start of full scale mobilisation. The full scale mobilisation in France was declared on the 1st of September. 1+15=16 of September.

But on app. 12th of September UK and France agreed not to do any sizeable land operation regardless of how long Poland would hold. I think Kovalski can bring light on this issue.

Read this one. Looking back it sounds like big pile of crap… but, hey, it is not crap - it is just politics!

source: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1939/390902a.html
Address by Edouard Daladier, Premier, in the Chamber of Deputies, September 2, 1939.

Gentlemen,

The Government yesterday decreed general mobilization.

.
.
.

I, myself, in the Chamber said, on May 11 last:

“As a result of the journey of the Polish Minister for Foreign Affairs to London and of the reciprocal pledges of guarantee given by Great Britain and Poland, by a common agreement with this noble and brave nation we tool the measures required for the immediate and direct application of our treaty of alliance.”

Parliament approved this policy.

Since then we have never failed both in diplomatic negotiations and in public utterances, to prove faithful to it. Our Ambassador in Berlin has several times reminded Herr Hitler that, if a German aggression were to take place against Poland, we should fulfill our pledges. And on July 1, in Paris, the Minister for Foreign Affairs said to the German Ambassador to France:

“France has definite commitments to Poland. These engagements have been further strengthened as a result of the latest events, and consequently France will at once be at Poland’s side as soon at Poland herself takes up arms.”

and more bla-bla-bla

[Egorka]

@Kovalski

737 or 1173 Soviet killed in action.
Not much as for 13 days of war.
But when we recall that Poles were ordered to act only in self-defence (that means they were not allowed to attack any Soviet unit on their own initiative).

Interesting fact is that about half of soviet losses were inflicted by polish troops during the battle of Szack on 28th of September.
And guess what… Poles were attacking. Soviet 52nd Infantry Div. lost about 500 KIA and 1600 WIA.
Just one offensive action of polish forces.

Kovalski, man, do not tell me that the Polish soldiers disobeyed the orders in Szack!!!

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

I cannot agree. The number of polish soldiers who fought against Red Army is unknown. Polish historians give a very wide numbers: from 10 to several dozens of thousands.

But the the most of Western historians gives us a very relatively small figure of soviet soldiers killed by the Poles as well as the Soviet historians tells that in most case the Red Army did not meet the resistance.
This obviously proved that indeed no more then 10-15% of about 250 000 of polish POWs tryed to resist the Soviets.
Thus the conclusion - poles did not actively fought with Red Army.

Forgive mate, but where the logic connection between the order and the attitude of polish soldiers toward the eastern provinces of Poland???
Your conclusion is not an exaggeration, its huge logical mistake.
If polish didn’t consider these land as their homeland, they wouldn’t had put 25 battalions at the border.
For God’s sake Chevan, where do you take these ideas from?

Well mate no problems you know i will always forgive you;)
But excuse me too - how would the polish 25 battalions in the bother die for the Estern Polish lands - meanwhile the native local population hated and kiled them in much more scale then the Red Army?
As i said - if the local population together with Red Army fight agains poles - does it not prove the oobvious fact - the poles were the rough invaiders in there?

[Chevan]

@1000ydstare

Chevan, the German offensive in to Poland was quick and over, prior to the British being able to do much.

As stated, there WAS a party of some 10-12 men in Poland from the British Army. They would have been sent far in advance of the German Attack, otherwise they wouldn’t have got there in time.

Besides which, in 1939 exactly how fast could the British have sent a Brigade or even a Battalion to aid the Polish?

Well i/m actually don’t guess how the British Royal fleet and the RAF could help the Poles;)
Sure we know they have no the bombs and shells - they have ONLY enought leaflets:D

Polish-British Common Defence Pact
On August 25th, two days after the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Polish-British Common Defence Pact was signed. The treaty contained promises of mutual military assistance between the nations in the event either was attacked by another European country. The United Kingdom, sensing a dangerous trend of German expansionism, sought to prevent German aggression by this show of solidarity. In a secret protocol of the pact, the United Kingdom only actually offered assistance in the case of an attack on Poland specifically by Germany, though both the United Kingdom and Poland were bound not to enter agreements with any other third countries which were a threat to the other.[

And what could do the 98 French-British infantry divisions on “Maginot line” plus 2500 tanks and 1000+ airsctrafts against the 43 germans divisions without tanks ans aviation at all;)
Sure they could do nothing;)
We all know that is was quite inpossible to fight with GErmans having the 2:1 superiority in infantry and armoured vehicles - were the French so stoopid?;)No…
They would better wait.

[Chevan]

“England , look that you have done”- The Nazy 1939 poster.
The Germans actively rise the anti-british feeling among the polish population in its own political aims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal#The_Phony_War
The problem with Polish expectations was that the French and British commitments greatly exaggerated their capabilities. Although France promptly declared war, the French mobilization was not complete until early October, by which time Poland had fallen. In Britain where mobilization was more rapid, only 1 in 40 men were mobilized (compared to 1 in 10 in France, and 1 in 20 in Poland), thus providing only a token force against Germany’s forces of several million. The presumption that “something could have been done but wasn’t” overlooks the basic fact that the West, just like Poland, was ill-equipped to fight Germany even with the majority of German forces engaged in the east.
After the war, General Alfred Jodl commented that the Germans survived 1939 “only because approximately 110 French and English divisions in the West, which during the campaign on Poland were facing 25 German divisions, remained completely inactive.”

So this is rather wrong to say that the Britain and France had no military power to attack the GErmans- they had aproximatelly 4:1 superiority in the Western front in sept 1939.
thus thay hd all chances to destroy the Reich when the most of Germans Army was in the Poland.
But why they have to do it?
Really for the Poles?

[Kovalski]

@Egorka

Kovalski, man, do not tell me that the Polish soldiers disobeyed the orders in Szack!!!

I don’t know what was the reason of the assault. Maybe Soviet wanted to disarm them? I searching for some detailed info about that battle.

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

But the the most of Western historians gives us a very relatively small figure of soviet soldiers killed by the Poles as well as the Soviet historians tells that in most case the Red Army did not meet the resistance.
This obviously proved that indeed no more then 10-15% of about 250 000 of polish POWs tryed to resist the Soviets.
Thus the conclusion - poles did not actively fought with Red Army.

I think the reason that the majority of polish soldiers in the East were caught in such big numbers and in such short period of time was that polish government didn’t officially announced the state of war between Poland and USSR. If we add the instruction given to soldiers about rules of engagement with Red Army, it resulted in huge disorientation and mess. I assume that the communications between polish HQ and units were broken. So it complemented the chaos.
Of course any polish unit which was attacked by RA resisted. Probably the majority of these soldiers were caught because of the R.O.E. order. It was obscure and at least “improper” (IMO).
Nevertheless, the KOP forces (Borderland Defence Corps - 20.000 troops on 17th of September) were actively fighting the Red Army, but don’t forget they had to face 30 infantry div., 10 cavalry div. and 12 motorized brigades.

@Chevan

Well mate no problems you know i will always forgive you;)

Chevan, your generosity made you famous

@Chevan

But excuse me too - how would the polish 25 battalions in the bother die for the Estern Polish lands - meanwhile the native local population hated and kiled them in much more scale then the Red Army?
As i said - if the local population together with Red Army fight agains poles - does it not prove the oobvious fact - the poles were the rough invaiders in there?

Chevan, you’re talking about civilian attacking Polish. I already asked you about some sources, because I don’t know nothing about such cases. Could you provide any?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

Chevan, you’re talking about civilian attacking Polish. I already asked you about some sources, because I don’t know nothing about such cases. Could you provide any?

Did you really not read the any infor about Ukrainian terroristic fight with Poles untill 1939?
OUN abreviature something tell you about?
According the Wiki the OUN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)#_note-Stosunki
2,500 polish POWs executed in immediate reprisals or by anti-Polish OUN bands
Sanford, p. 20–24.

http://wcry.narod.ru/meltyukhov2/03.html
Как отмечал 20 сентября в своем донесении Сталину из войск 4-го кавкорпуса начальник Политуправления РККА армейский комиссар 1 ранга Л. 3. Мехлис, «польские офицеры, кроме отдельных групп, потеряв армию и перспективу убежать в Румынию, стараются сдаться нам по двум мотивам:

1. Они опасаются попасть в плен к немцам и
2. Как огня боятся украинских крестьян и населения, которые активизировались с приходом Красной армии и расправляются с польскими офицерами. Дошло до того, что в Бурштыне польские офицеры, отправленные корпусом в школу и охраняемые незначительным караулом, просили увеличить число охраняющих их, как пленных, бойцов, чтобы избежать возможной расправы с ними населения»{
   …
   As i was noticed by the comissar 1-rang Mehlis in his report- the poles readily surrendering for the Red Army coz the two very importaint reson;):

1. Fear to be captured by Germans
2. Fear of retrebution of local Ukraine peasants, who have rised its activity when Red Army entered to the Western Ukraine.For instance in the Bushtin the POW polish officers, guarded by the few soviet soldiers ASKED the soviet command to INCREASE the guard to prevent the possible reprisals of local Ukraine population ( i.e. the peasants).

The rise of anti-polish feelings among the Western Ukrainians and Belorussians was a LOGICAL consequences of the policy of Polonisation. So i think you should not be surprised for the ukrain terrorists fight agains poles.

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

Did you really not read the any infor about Ukrainian terroristic fight with Poles untill 1939?
OUN abreviature something tell you about?
According the Wiki the OUN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)#_note-Stosunki
2,500 polish POWs executed in immediate reprisals or by anti-Polish OUN bands
Sanford, p. 20–24.

The rise of anti-polish feelings among the Western Ukrainians and Belorussians was a LOGICAL consequences of the policy of Polonisation. So i think you should not be surprised for the ukrain terrorists fight agains poles.

Aaa!

Of course I heard about that. I misunderstood you, I’m sorry. I thought you were thinking about some cooperation between RA and ukrainian and belorussian civilians in september 1939.

Believe me or not, but I learned in school about Polonisation, and polish repressions against Ukrainian, Belorussians and other nationalities.
I also learned about OUN and widely understood ukrainian “countermesures” and anti-polish terrorism.

[Chevan]

@Kovalski

Aaa!

Of course I heard about that. I misunderstood you, I’m sorry. I thought you were thinking about some cooperation between RA and ukrainian and belorussian civilians in september 1939.

Believe me or not, but I learned in school about Polonisation, and polish repressions against Ukrainian, Belorussians and other nationalities.
I also learned about OUN and widely understood ukrainian “countermesures” and anti-polish terrorism.

Well i m not sure they interacted with RA but the certainly attacked the poles. And they killed many of them according to the reports.
Sure the terrorist OUN was not a peasants , however they clearly expressed the average relation of local ukrainians.
So this is very resonable fact thet the many poles simply surrendered to the RA instead of to fight against RA.
They were not cowards, but to fight for ALIEN lands with hostitle population - is stopid suicide.

[Kovalski]

@Chevan

Well i m not sure they interacted with RA but the certainly attacked the poles. And they killed many of them according to the reports.
Sure the terrorist OUN was not a peasants , however they clearly expressed the average relation of local ukrainians.

Well, it’s not my opinoin but yours.
But still you haven’t give me a single source mate.

@Chevan

So this is very resonable fact thet the many poles simply surrendered to the RA instead of to fight against RA.
They were not cowards, but to fight for ALIEN lands with hostitle population - is stopid suicide.

OK Chevan I’m sorry, I can’t comment in a different way - your conclusion is simply stupid.
Please give me the exact research, any source, which was a base for such explanation - which would tell you that these lands were hostile for polish soldiers.

If you can’t provide such info, it seems you are telling fairy tales again mate.
And I can’t argue with you then, I treat this topic as closed.

[1000ydstare]

[qoute=Chevan]Sure we know they have no the bombs and shells - they have ONLY enought leaflets[/quote]

At the start of the war, the RAF were strictly limited in what they could do. The Germans were streets ahead, and had already masted the doctrine of total war.

The RAF on the other hand, were originally prevented from bombing factories and the like on the grounds they were private property.

The Germans were much better prepared, drilled and equipped at the time (even with the much vaunted all mech Army of the British) than any other nation in Europe.

ALL nations had slept whilst the Germans reequipped and remobilised a huge force.