The UK flight of Rudolf Hess

World War II General WWII Discussion
#1

"May 10, 1941 was a day that could have brought a change to world affairs if western politicians had appreciated the sacrificial effort of a responsible man. On this very May 10, 1941 Rudolf Hess put his life, office and honour at stake to save Europe’s peace. If his plan -convincing the british leadership to cease the fightings- had succeeded, millions upon millions victims of war would have survived, numberless towns of ancient culture and villages of peaceful living would have been spared, like Breslau (Wroclaw), Königsberg (Kaliningrad), Cologne and Würzburg but also St. Petersburg (Leningrad), Warsaw, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The global hazard of Bolshevism would have been banned, the downfall of the occident and world civilization slowed down. Instead the peace-flyer spent the rest of his days in prison, alone in a giant dungeon, guarded by soldiers of four states demoted to jailers.
On March 3, 1919 Hess wrote to his best friend und former front comrade, Max Hofweber, that in his opinion it’s a mistake to create martyrs. Now he became a martyr of the 20th century himself.
The Nuremberg Tribunal acquitted him of the charges “war crimes” and “crimes against humanity”, found him guilty of “crimes against peace”. How unsustainable both accusal and verdict had been to all kinds of senses of justice, Hess-attorney Dr. Adolf Seidl determined during the Nuremberg Trials already and confirmed this with his constitutional complaint of 1980. Some observers of the case had the impression that Hess with his peace-flight only wanted to keep Hitlers back free in the west due to a forthcoming war in the east. Conflicting to this would be that Hess already planned his flight in late autumn of 1940. The only preserved farewell letter to his family was written on November 4, 1940. It said: <My dearest, I deeply believe that I will return from the flight which I am about to take within the next days and that it will be a success. If not, the goal I set for myself, was worth the efforts. I know that you know me. You know, I couldn’t act in a different way. Yours, Rudolf.>
Two flight attempts failed due to technics and weather conditions. Not eearlier than May 10, 1941 the plane reached its goal, unfortunately the pilot didn’t reach his! Did Hess fly with the knowledge and the order of Hitler? An interaction between both of them is unlikely because in autumn of 1940 there weren’t any thoughts given about <Barbarossa>, this operation was planned not before Molotovs Berlin visit and his exorbitant claims.
Everybody knows that a settlement with the UK was Hitler’s favourite wish. Hess wanted to help to fulfill this wish. However it’s improbable that he acted on Hitler’s direct order. Mrs. Hess remembers her husband talking most seriously about the “Militär-Maria-Theresia-Orden”, the highest war decoration of Austria-Hungary founded in 1757. In the medals statutes it is written inter alia: <…that all deeds, which could have been omitted without any blame, but still were ventured, are worth a decoration.> Mrs. Hess always saw a connection between her husband’s talk and his flight.
According to remaining measures the <Deputy> had deserved something similar to the Nobel Prize for Peace, instead he was granted Cell 7 in the Spandau Prison until his death in 1987, a scorn to justice and humanity.” (by Werner Hänsler, Deutsches Soldatenjahrbuch)

What do you think? An article full of revisionist nonsense, a justified attempt of Hess worth a try? Or was Hess really the nutter hhe pretended to be during the Nuremberg Trials? Opinions?

#2

What I don’t like about Hess, is his amnesia complaints and his denial that there were any concentration camps. I don’t know if the camps were built after Hess vacated Germany, but I find it hard to believe that the second in Command didn’t know about the concentration camps. Even his grandson Wolf was fined for insighting the Hate Laws of Germany by posting Hess’s concentration camp denials. I think Hess vamoosed from germany because he didn’t want his ass in the fryer when War broke out.

#3

Don’t know about the “rats are leaving the sinking ship”-thing. By May 1941 things had still been crimson and clover for the Third Reich - more or less.

#4

here is from the top of my silly head: “Barbarossa” was definately started being planned in July 1940.

#5

I do agree on that one. Plannings began in late July 1940, the necessity for an early attack by summer of 1941 was indeed seen after the Molotov visit in November 1940.

#6

I vote for “nutter”
Here’s the tail of the Bf 110 that was shot down over Scotland.

Picture from the IWM in London.
little boy is my son btw.

#7

There’s something at the back of my mind about British records of interrogation of Hess after he landed still being secret, and something about people who were involved in his capture and or early custody or interrogation having raised questions about what really happened. Or maybe I’ve confused it with something else?

#8

No you are absolutely right,a bit mystery/conspiracy theory that goes with it also.
A lot of people wondered why a guy that has nothing to do with Germany’s political,military and economical choices after 1941 would still be in jail until his death in 87 while people like Speer, Sepp Dietrich and many others were released in the 50’s.
EDIT: files should be accessible by 2016.

#9

what do you mean by “necessity”?
Necessity of what?

#10

Generally spoken the german leadership saw a “necessity” of attacking as soon as possible before the soviets could.
Probably Molotovs claims during his Berlin visit (soviet influences in Hungary, Greece, Turkey and Yugoslavia as well as concessions in Finland and Romania) made them assume that a confrontation could not be avoided in the long term.

#11

While the argument that Operation Barbarossa was a preemptive attack has often been shrugged off as an excuse used by the Nazis, I think that they had reason to believe that eventually there would be a confrontation anyway. Whether that was part of Hess’ reasons for his flight to UK or not, we’ll only know for certain when the interrogations and additional paperwork related to his flight are declassified and become available for examination (assuming they ever do). I don’t believe that the Nazis really wanted a war in the West. Most of their expansion plans were geared to a move south and east. Even the racial policies enacted by the regime acknowledged that the peoples in the west were considered either equals or very close to the Germans. The natural resources that they were interested in were also to the east and southeast. The western countries got involved due to their promises to Poland and perhaps the Germans underestimated the western countries’ resilience and persistence on it, especially from the UK.
I do believe that Barbarossa was already in the works by the time Hess went to UK and certainly it would have been advantageous for the Germans to have the confrontations in the west stopped. Regardless of the reasons why Hess would have attempted to do this, I think the UK and other western countries were already set on continuing war with Germany because it was their thought that a strong Germany was a threat. IMO, Churchill would have never agreed to make peace with Germany, even if it could have meant that millions of lives would have been spared. So, I don’t find the revisionist account to be too far-fetched.

#12

One theory floated is Hess was the last effort to negotiate a armistice with Britian before starting the war with the USSR. He brought along a special code book for commuicating the discussion with Britian. So, this was a offcially sanctioned journey rather than a individuals forlorn hope. The reason for the secrecy is Churchill & some other politicians took the offer seriously due to their anti communist attitudes and a series of messages were exchanged. The negotiations ceased when the British leaders judged the USSR to be little threat to Britian or its Empire while Germany would continue to be a extreme danger. Hesses isolation was a sucessfull efort to conceal these May-June 1941 negotiations.

#13

Considering that almost all the other (top) nazis laughed their head off when they had to deal with Hess and his totally silly ideas… it’s just amazing how much fuzz/attention/glamour his airheaded actions got, and still get. All the energy spent trying to explain some sense into his actions.

“I remember Hess had a bright idea once in treating me for some neuralgia… one day lots of pots and pans arrived of all different sizes. I didn’t know what they were for. One was for soaking my arm, another my forearm, another size for my leg, my thing, and so on. I called him up and asked him what he had sent me so many pots for - did he think I wanted to start an aquarium? But Hess explained that I told him I had neuralgia and that this was the treatment for it. I thanked him over the telephone and laughed for days.”
-Hermann Göring

_

#14

He he he
THose semi-stopid Nazic has come to England to save “Leningrad , Warsaw and Hiorosima”:slight_smile:
I just wonder , how ( or why ) he has forgot to save the …Jews. Just like an peace-loving Nazi.
What a cynicism.
He ( or people beyong him) obviously was aimed to sign a separate peace with Britain to concentrate German war mashine MORE CAREFULLY on the Genocide in the East.
But it seems Hess lost any sense of reality:)
The GErmans a whole year bombed England , killing and terrorized civils and now pitful Hess is going to ask “to cease the fightings”.
Were the brits full idiots to agree with Hess?
Hardly. Especialy Churchill who was ready to fight to the end.

#15

You write just like that Japanese minister- “Japane have been involved to the WW2 by Rooswelt controlled by Commintern”:slight_smile:
How can the country that has no military technological and professional advantage threat the Continental Europe , fully subordinated and controlled by Germany in 1941?
The Barbarossa wasn’t just an preventive attack.
And the Hitler’s speeches itself just proves it.
He told after the Winter war to the Keitel - that Russian Army is a “Colosussus on earthen legs”.
So hardly he actually feared the “Bolshevic invasion” at that time.
The Real reason of Barbarossa might be the Germans hunger of resources- oil, ore and cheap manpower of the East.Germany simply can’t lead the long war with Britain ( that owned the rich colonies in Asia) and probably British closest Ally - USA , without getting it’s OWN colonies on the East.
The one of the goal of Barbarossa was to cupture the agricultural Ukraine ( it was even first aim ) and Caucaus , rich by oil.
During his countless conferences , the Hitler always put the attention of their GErnerals on the economical aspects of War? He order to hold Uktraine and belorussia in 1944 by all possible means, insisting on Ecomomical reasons.
By other words - the Barbarossa from most begining was planned as sort of Colonial conquering Compain, and the “protection against bolshevism” was just an propogandic gesture.

#16

But isn’t it strange then that Hess’ adjutant (the deputy’s deputy) was put in a concentration camp because the Nazi leadership had alleged evidence that he was initiated into Hess’ plans and didn’t report them?

#17

Sorry if you got the impression that this originated from my brain. It didn’t, it’s from historian Werner Maser (Der Wortbruch. Hitler, Stalin und der Zweite Weltkrieg)

How can the country that has no military technological and professional advantage threat the Continental Europe , fully subordinated and controlled by Germany in 1941?
The Barbarossa wasn’t just an preventive attack.
And the Hitler’s speeches itself just proves it.
He told after the Winter war to the Keitel - that Russian Army is a “Colosussus on earthen legs”.

Well, her “earthen legs” didn’t restrain the Soviet Union to do expansion attempts in western (Baltic States, Poland), north-western (Finland) and south-western direction (IIRC some romanian group of islands in the Danube Delta was occupied and the romanian, southern part of the Bucovina was claimed).

So hardly he actually feared the “Bolshevic invasion” at that time.
The Real reason of Barbarossa might be the Germans hunger of resources- oil, ore and cheap manpower of the East.Germany simply can’t lead the long war with Britain ( that owned the rich colonies in Asia) and probably British closest Ally - USA , without getting it’s OWN colonies on the East.
The one of the goal of Barbarossa was to cupture the agricultural Ukraine ( it was even first aim ) and Caucaus , rich by oil.
During his countless conferences , the Hitler always put the attention of their GErnerals on the economical aspects of War? He order to hold Uktraine and belorussia in 1944 by all possible means, insisting on Ecomomical reasons.
By other words - the Barbarossa from most begining was planned as sort of Colonial conquering Compain, and the “protection against bolshevism” was just an propogandic gesture.

I am afraid there will never be proof if the Soviet Union would have ever attacked Germany. On the other hand however I will never be totally assured that they wouldn’t.

#18

Of course it didn’t restrain the SU.
There is not needed the strength to take that lands that didn’t resist. When Finland tryed to resist- look at the resault.
Besides as you know the Hitler himself actively pulled Stalin to those “separation of Europe” becouse he needs to legitime international reason to split the Europe for and get the others to his Axis side.
BTW to the contrast of GErmany , SU never claimed territories that didn’t belong to former Russian Impire and later have been seized by our neighbourd ( except the part of Finnish Karelia).
Bessarabia, Western Ukraine and even Baltic states have been lost ONLY after Bolshevics
“revolution”

I am afraid there will never be proof if the Soviet Union would have ever attacked Germany. On the other hand however I will never be totally assured that they wouldn’t.

The SU migh attack Germany ONLY if the German Army would have been involved in mass combatans with Brits or Americans. One of the possible scenario is the operation Sea lion the Landing to the BRitish Islands.
But as we know it was rather a Hypotetical Plan - GErmans didn’t have enough ships and transports to realize it in practice in 1941.
So indeed the active GREAT landing operation in Western front in 1941 was IMPOSSIBLE.
Therefore the USSR did never attacked Germany FIRST at that time.
The only good possibility was during Battle of France - but it was so short and Germans have finished it so quickly and succesfully that USSR simply have no time for the attack.

#19

In return that would mean a german attack “only” on Poland to re-gain the “corridor”, on France for Alsace-Lorraine, on Belgium for the Malmedy-Eupen region, on the Netherlands for the territories to the east of the Maas (Meuse) River and on Denmark for Northern Schleswig would be justified?

Bessarabia, Western Ukraine and even Baltic states have been lost ONLY after Bolshevics “revolution”

You’d probably piss off millions of Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Bessarabians big time with that comment. :shock:

#20

Ah, was Barbarossa preemptive or not? So many WW2 discussions end up with this! To say that the Soviet Union was not technologicaly advanced is not exactly accurate. Stalin was at the time in the process of reorganizing the army with hopes of making it stronger and more loyal to him. While the Germans were more technologically advanced than the Soviets until the end of the war, the Soviets weren’t idiots with no weapons in the works. The fact that Hitler obviously underestimated the Soviets doesn’t prove that he wasn’t afraid of an eventual and future attack. The whole purpose of a preemptive attack is to catch the enemy when it is still not quite prepared, something that became quite obvious during Barbarossa.

While there were weaknesses in the Soviets’ preparedness, using those weaknesses as an argument against the theory that the Soviets were expansionist is rather self-serving. The fact that the Soviets were able to come back and, with sheer number superiority, get the Germans to retreat is proof that there was much more to the Soviet Union than our friend Chevan wants to admit. If they had weaknesses in 1941, many of those weaknesses had disappeared by 1943. The Soviets were able to mobilize an incredible amount of people and come up with a great number of weapons that helped them. The only difference is that Stalin had to mobilize all those forces and resources earlier than he would have wanted to and he almost lost the country because the Germans beat him to the punch. The only way that the Soviets could have responded so quickly was if the infrastructure for that kind of power was already there.

While it is true that we may never know for certain, there is no doubt in my mind that Stalin had expansionist views and plans. To not have them would have gone against everything he stood for and demonstrated before and after the war. His plans weren’t for immediate execution in 1941. That would have indeed been dumb on his part. But, when Germany attacked, I don’t think that the German leadership was thinking that a Russian invasion was imminent at that point in time, but that it was imminent soemtime in the near future. I’m convinced that if Germany would have given Stalin two more years, the opponent that they would have faced would have been much stronger; and perhaps, the Germans wouldn’t have been the first ones to fire.