What a lively debate. Thanks for the info to think about.
As for:
- I still think the bombing of Soviet tank factories (as well as other Soviet military industry, as in steel mills) could have played a critical roll. Had those factories been bombed before they were evacuated…
Yes, Tankograd could still have been reached by a 4 engine bomber from German Occupied territory in the Ukraine. Think, B24’s raided Ploesti from N. Africa, not from the bases in England.
- Ukraine was full of food, they could have brought their own food with them. The territory of Ukraine had plenty of assets that could have been pressed into service to fight the Soviets.
My point is that the start line for Operation Typhoon was 200 miles west of Moscow. Major German units got within 75 miles of the city by late November. Perhaps with one last push, and an additional 200,000 Ukrainian troops, they could have made it. Perhaps.
If not in late '41 then again, with more troops, they try a direct assault in the Spring of '42. At that point in the war the Germans were still within 250 miles of the Soviet capital. Ignore Stalingrad to the south and push all out, with Hoth’s tanks in the lead, to Moscow.
As for point 4, I think Hitler was indicating by late '41 and early '42 that he would have accepted a Soviet Union behind the Urals so long as he was in control of European Russia. Yes, it seems that everyone who invades Russia forgets that there are like 4 time zones east of Moscow to deal with.
That’s the thing with ‘what if’ scenarios, there is just no way to prove the outcome. Thanks for the insights.
As for DS’s points.
Yes I agree, Hitler was a viscious monster foisted on the German people. I could, and should, go into the rise of Hitler in another thread.
However, just let me make these points: Hitler was nothing, a nobody. Then somebody, or some group, funded this rise to power.
Who?
Well, a man named Fritz Thyssen wrote a book entitled, “I paid Hitler”. Ok, I believe Fritz. Then there was a Hitler cheering section among the elite of Britain who funded Hitler. Of couse, not to be left out were top American industrialists like Ford and Rockafeller who funded Hitler. Last, there was the Grandfather of our previous President, Prescott Bush, who set up a bank in the USA that laundered Nazi loot during WWII that kept the German war effort going.
Why? Why would they all do that?
2 reasons:
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Build up German military industry and aim Germany at the Soviet Union under Stalin. Stalin was building his own tank invasion force. Use the German army to ‘take care’ of Stalin. Send a crazy to deal with the other crazy.
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In the end, Germany has no option to win and will be destroyed. There goes Germany as a major competator to the Anglo/American Empire.
Hum…
(Ok, this is my last word here)