In many countries of peace there are traitors, in the Ukraine this is the soldiers of UPA Ukrainska Povstanchenska Armia and benderovtsy, of course, their adherents will say that they fought for the independence, but the wars of the Red Army and other troops, where there were traitors, they will understand me! I consider that they betrayed both entire Ukrainian and Soviet people and arose under the banners of enemy, and real patriots, voluntarily they were written in the numbers of the Red Army. And I dont understand this situation, when they indicate that they were the liberators, Red army and army of peace who fought with them - here are real liberators! And eternal by them memory!
So many traitors that you have to make a topic about it. :roll:
Not so many as you would to think but enough many to start a new thread about traitors.
Let’s continie, comrade leutenant Vorontsov.
I agree with Chevan, so not much, but it is sufficient in order to express the protest
Photo of Ukrainian traitors.
1 photo: Shooting of Jews in Kovno city.
2 photos: Stepan Bandera, one of osnavateley UPA.
3 photos: Officers of Ukrainian batalbenov (UPA).
4 photos: Ukrainian rural police (nationalists).
5 photos: Soldiers of 115 Ukrainian battalions UPA.
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And I dont understand this situation, when they indicate that they were the liberators, Red army and army of peace who fought with them - here are real liberators!
Vorontsov - they are traitors by definition (they betrayed Soviet Union). Some of them are criminals and killers too (such as your photo 1).
Most of them however were fighting for the independent Ukraine or simply against Stalin/Communists. After the golodomor of the 32-33 there are a lot of BAD feelings against the Soviets. There also was the razkylachivanie (extermination of the agricultural elite who did not join collective farms). Don’t tell me that it made people like Stalin & Soviet rule. What happened there - was not any better than what Hitler did to Jews!
Please PLEASE tell me that the communists, NKVD and by extension the Red Army was not responsible for the atrocities I described above! Rebellion against USSR was a natural response.
They however made a mistake - they though that Nazis are better than Soviets and would give them Independent Ukraine. This did not happen. Unfortunately their choice only prolonged the life of the Nazi regime.
This is a VERY politically charged topic - was the Red Army a liberator - or occupier - or both? Did anybody have a right to rebel against them?
Davai zemlyak - jdy otveta!
This is a VERY politically charged topic
No worry, that is the only way the russian/ukranians members like the topics in here. :rolleyes:
Panzercnacker, should we talk about uniforms and tank weel sizes instead?
Odessit,
I kind of agree with you. I think looking backwards the role these people had was very tragic. Both in the sence of the crimes that many of them commited, as well as how they affected their own lifes.
I think most of them had a reason to do what they did. The problem (or rather the tragedy) was that they helped the force that was aimed at the destruction of their own geopolitical universe. You know how it sometimes, you want do everything to help only to find out that what you did actualy worsened the situation.
There is one thing that I can never understand about these “traitors” or “freedom fighters” depending on your perspective…
Imagine you are a Russian soldier. You hate the soviets as your home farm has been taken from you and collectivised, some of your relatives went to a Gulag because they protested against the collectivisation. So you hate the Soviet regime but have been drafted in to the Army.
You are then captured by the Germans and taken to a PofW camp. The Germans say wil give you your farm back and remove the Soviet regime and want your help to do it by fighting with them.
So you join the German Army and find yourself fighting the Red Army.
Now what I don’t understand is that you want to see the collapse of the Soviet regime and to achieve this end you are WILLING TO FIGHT YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN who most likley have similar experiences to yourself. That is what I don’t understand.
Rather than fight and kill may be other means such as taking part in propaganda and encouraging surrenders is more likely to achieve your aims.
This is the first your mistake arnob.
You can not to be the russian soldier and hate the soviets - this is the absourd.All of the russian soldiers who do not like the soviet power were killed during the Civil war of 1918-1921 or have emigrated to the West.
some of your relatives went to a Gulag because they protested against the collectivisation. So you hate the Soviet regime but have been drafted in to the Army.
Again you are thinking rather the Cold war propogandic terms.
How many percantage of peoples were send at the GULAG, were shoted of NKVD./ The repressions has touched no more 3-5% of population of USSR.
So no a lot of russian soldiers feels such as you wrote
You are then captured by the Germans and taken to a PofW camp. The Germans say wil give you your farm back and remove the Soviet regime and want your help to do it by fighting with them.
This is your second mistake. Sorry.
May be you don’t know but the Germans will NEVER give your farm back to you.This is just a propogandic trick.
Indeed Germans did not wish to liqudate the soviet collective farms on the “liberated territories”.
They still force to work the peasants in the coviet conditions.
When for instance, the one russian peasant asked the General Vlasov “When will Germans give us back our land form the collective farms?” The answer was too simple - “After the Red Army will finally crushed”.
Indeed the Germans did not need to get back the peasant the lend - becouse this could bring at the arising of the national feeling of peoples.
Germans did not need this - they only needed the new slaves , lands, and resources from the east.
So you join the German Army and find yourself fighting the Red Army.
Now what I don’t understand is that you want to see the collapse of the Soviet regime and to achieve this end you are WILLING TO FIGHT YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN who most likley have similar experiences to yourself. That is what I don’t understand.
Indeed the answer is simple.
The Nazy were not liberators and you simply the traitor 
i/m could understand your confusion at this theme.
Your rpoblem that you think that by the propogandic categories " like as MILLIONS killed in Gulag" and the “devil soviet regime”.
Actualy the soviet regime was the bad in manies thinks but the life of simple peoples were far from hate toward the Motheland ( althouh and Soviet at that moment ;))
It is my understanding that many of the traitors were fighting for their OWN country against others, Nazi and Communist.
That the Red Army were liberators and invaders at the same time. They liberated but then subjected the countries they had liberated to their own rule. By definition this is a contradiction in terms, regardless of who carries out such actions.
The current drama in Estonia revolves around this point. Whilst the Russians would like to see their soldiers reverred for their actions, do the Estonians wish to be constantly reminded of the actions of the communists in their country
I would suggest that, in general, the soldiers should be celebrated, yet the regime behind them should, in general be detested.
The same with the traitors. Whilst their actions can not be reconciled, they were not strictly traitors.
Every traitor has a side.
This is a demagogy again. Sorry ydstare.
You could not fight for your abstrack “own country”.
There were only too sides Soviet Russia and Nazy Germany. That’s all.
And this was a MORTAL fight.
So you have only one chouse indeed.
To be or with YOUR country or with Enemy. That’s is the only true.
That the Red Army were liberators and invaders at the same time. They liberated but then subjected the countries they had liberated to their own rule. By definition this is a contradiction in terms, regardless of who carries out such actions.
Not so.
The inaders Red Army has bagame ONLY after the collapse of the USSR and soviet ideology at thos territories.
But right after the war the communist ideoligy was TOO strong ( even in the in the France the communism was a popular among some of the leaders).
Even the Israel in the beginning of its existens was very friendly for the soviet ideology for the first time.
Moreover the states like China untill the nowadays officially recognized the communist ideology ( its modernized variant) as one ONLY right.
I would suggest that, in general, the soldiers should be celebrated, yet the regime behind them should, in general be detested
Well i know for the sure that Russian veterans do not feels the hate toward the Soviet or USSR. Becouse it was their Motheland - the pure psyhological reason. And they spend the most of its life in there, This was the country where they were a young.
Chevan you have right, but you look on this situation from nowdays perspectiv. Did you think that all soviet citizen who joint to germans was read “Main Kampf”? Did they know what nazi want to do with all slaves after war?
I don’t think so.
Polar you are definitely the most amizing the pole that i’ve meeted sometimes;)
This you and me could just read about WW2 and have a dispute about.
But for the peoples in the occuped territoried it was clear.
They saw by its own eyes the Nazy crimes- the mass shoting, public executions , ethnic purges and ets.
Do you really think that when the peoples saw as the SS shotted 50 or 100 civilians ( ukrains, russians and belorussians) for the EVERY ONE GErman soldiers killed buy the partisans they could believed in the “Nazy liberation”.
The one of the fact that proved the peoples hate toward the Gernas is that the wide partisan movenment in the Ukrainand and Belorussian forests.
That’s right some of them were far from soviets :mostly ukrainian and Baltic nationalist. They helped the nazy coz they naivly believed them.
I not wrote about opinion all soviet citizen but only opinion soviet citizen who join to nazi.
Do you think did as you wrote “…mostly ukrainian and Baltic nationalist…” know what germans prepare fot it after war? I don’t think so.
Thiose are their own problems - do know about that what should happend after the war or not.
They could to see the behaviour the Nazy toward the their own civils population .
May be they like the Nazy policy of violence - i don’t exactly know.
I just sure they supported the most unhuman regime ( and does not matter their convictions indeed) toward the slav population.
Arnob:
Now what I don’t understand is that you want to see the collapse of the Soviet regime and to achieve this end you are WILLING TO FIGHT YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN who most likley have similar experiences to yourself. That is what I don’t understand.
That is the tragedy of this fallen and therfore cursed world!!!
Vorontsov - they are traitors by definition (they betrayed Soviet Union). Some of them are criminals and killers too (such as your photo 1).
Most of them however were fighting for the independent Ukraine or simply against Stalin/Communists. After the golodomor of the 32-33 there are a lot of BAD feelings against the Soviets. There also was the razkylachivanie (extermination of the agricultural elite who did not join collective farms). Don’t tell me that it made people like Stalin & Soviet rule. What happened there - was not any better than what Hitler did to Jews!
Please PLEASE tell me that the communists, NKVD and by extension the Red Army was not responsible for the atrocities I described above! Rebellion against USSR was a natural response.They however made a mistake - they though that Nazis are better than Soviets and would give them Independent Ukraine. This did not happen. Unfortunately their choice only prolonged the life of the Nazi regime.
This is a VERY politically charged topic - was the Red Army a liberator - or occupier - or both? Did anybody have a right to rebel against them?
Davai zemlyak - jdy otveta!
I is glad, that you understood me in the sense that they betrayed THE USSR, but that by it made the same Jews, Russians and even ukraintsi of whom they killed, my grand-dad, who lived in the Bryansk, also survived golodomor, its father Stalin even wanted to kill, but he did not arise under the enemy banners, and he protected the native land. And if they did fight for the independence why they they did accomplish punitive marches on the villages, why they did guard concentration camp, in which nebylo not of one stalinista? I do hope, you is agreeable that they not dostoiny of status of veterans?
Vorontsov is asking if they [USSR’s citizens who fought on Hitler’s side] deserve the status of a Veteran.
Are they veterans? Yes. Anybody who fought in a war is a veteran.
Do they deserve special benefits which former USSR provides to RED ARMY veterans? - No that would be silly.
Should they be condemned to die in poverty - hell no.
The problem that I see with your statements Vorontsov - you can’t just condemn every single person who fought against USSR. You can’t know the exact circumstances of their “choice”.