Just curious what you guys think? I say they probably deserved it, but that will come out later. I have not seen the video yet.
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060213&hn=29707
Mike the opening is a little off the mark see below
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707916.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708866.stm
Soldiers are shown beating the teens with batons and kicking a dead Iraqi in the face.
To my knowledge no one died in this incident. This report that you linked to is a very poor description of what took place.
Youths were throwing stones at the troops ie a riot, I have heard talk of grenades but cannot confirm. A platoon in riot gear was deployed and a snatch squad moved out to arrest the most noticeable (slowest). They were then brought into the camp and this is when the beatings took place. Torcher is a method of gaining info, this was more quick retribution that should not have happened and was not systematic. It was more like the Rodney King them Abu Grade.
You are also reading a site providing propaganda for the Arab consumption not a balanced report. And using the News of the Screws as an authoritive source is stretching it. If they said it was Sunday I would check with someone else to confirm.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/armyvideo.shtml
edited to add link to footage of incident
I just used the title of the article I posted for my subject line. Torture ?? I don’t know I have not seen the video yet, but I don’t think I would probably classify it as torture but then I didnt think Abu Ghraib was torture either.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,,1708162,00.htmlCompared with the “just for fun” beheadings and suicide bombs this are nothing.
I think those youths got off lightly, they could have had a bullet in the head. Just our troops trying to suppress a difficult situation, teaching a few future “beheaders” a lesson.
If the rioters were beaten once inside the camp, then those responsible must face justice; NOT because I disagree with what they did but because they let some stupidfukcer video it.
Go back fifty years & the RoE would have sanctioned live fire…
Had it been the Iraqi police there, I’m sure that they would have opened fire on the perpetrators. And then beaten seven shades of sh1t out of them.
But, they broke rule number 1 – Don’t Get Caught.
Rule No 1 no longer exists.
They Should NOT have done it under any provocation. Or they shouldnt have been allowed to do it.
We have to show that we are better than them. That means we always have to show restraint at all times and use the appropriate force for any given situation.
Bottom line is, guys have to act as if there are cameras on them all the time…
Of course a good kicking is not torture so it has been reported out of proportion, as usual!
Oh and I think the Abu graihb stuff was torture!
Prior to my first tour in NI we were shown the 60s riot drills on film. Box formation, signs (go home or we shoot) in two types of Chinese, fixed bayonets, buglers and aimed shots at the guy in the red top.
If you watch the film (and I believe it has been edited) they are brought in but will not stand still so are reminded that resistance is futile. Most of the blows are on the legs and arms as taught. It only goes very bad when some others turn up and the boot is put in.
If you watch it with no sound it is not that bad (see the miners strike and Wopping), it is the commentary from the prat who should be on stag that tilts the balance. It is also worth pointing out that at this time Al-Amarah was not a nice place to be and the Mahdi army was vying for control.
i dont know if it is right or not
if you are a british soldier, how would you feel if you risk your own life, and see your some of your friends dying, just to liberate the iraqi people from a dictator? However, those people say thanks to you in a different way than usual. They throw stones at you, they shoot you, they throw stones at you.
The problem with this is that it has to be viewed in context, now i don’t condone what happened but, you have to know what happen surrounding the incident. To kick off a home made grenade was reported to have been thrown at them. This could have scared to soldiers and made them angry. However, that on its own is a bit weak. As others said it was during a nasty time in al-amarah and i imagine tensions were running high. We don’t what other factors could have led to them acting in this manner.
:lol: Why do I not find this hard to believe? :lol:
The “armchair heroes” from the Media are ahppy to criticise from the safety of their office, whilst those being condemned for their actions face the possibility of death, or serious injury on a daily basis.
Forty years ago, this behaviour would have been met with a couple of warnings, followed by live rounds.
The rioters got off lightly.
The guy who found it amusing enough to film needs the boot for his attitude.
:lol: Why do I not find this hard to believe? :lol:[/quote]
Whats your definition of Torture then?
[quote=“Firefly”]
:lol: Why do I not find this hard to believe? :lol:[/quote]
Whats your definition of Torture then?[/quote]
Honestly looked like a shock to their pride more than anything. Dont know if i would actually call it torture.
Now look its war and you cant wage war and peace at the same time. It doesnt surprise me at all what the recent footage of british soliders did. They are sacred and pissed they could at any moment be killed. Personally besides maybe just kicking them out of the Army I dont think much should be done to them.
:lol: Why do I not find this hard to believe? :lol:[/quote]
Whats your definition of Torture then?[/quote]
Honestly looked like a shock to their pride more than anything. Dont know if i would actually call it torture.
Now look its war and you cant wage war and peace at the same time. It doesnt surprise me at all what the recent footage of british soliders did. They are sacred and pissed they could at any moment be killed. Personally besides maybe just kicking them out of the Army I dont think much should be done to them.[/quote]
No I didnt mean a simple Kicking was torture, I was replying to the Abu Graihb thing, I do think that was torture, how else can you describe that.
When I think of torture, what comes to my mind is how U.S. soldiers were treated in Vietnam prison camps. I don't know what all was done at Abu Graihb but having underwear put on someone's head, making a human pyramid with naked men or pose naked in front of a woman isn't torture. There might be other more serious issues with Abu Graihb but I have not seen them.
I agree it was some stupid shit ( like the UK video ) and some of the U.S. personnel need to be punished but to classify all of it torture is silly. When I think of torture, what comes to my mind is how U.S. soldiers were treated in Vietnam prison camps. I don't know what all was done at Abu Graihb but having underwear put on someone's head, making a human pyramid with naked men or pose naked in front of a woman isn't torture. There might be other more serious issues with Abu Graihb but I have not seen them.
I agree it was some stupid shit ( like the UK video ) and some of the U.S. personnel need to be punished but to classify all of it torture is silly.[/quote]
I think you may have missed something. The latest pictures are a little more graphic than England playing with a hooded guy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4716280.stm
These are graphic images so I have not posted the pictures just the link to them.
I believe that the US senate has already seen these but they were not released to the public. The question is Who released them and why at this time.
I went thru the 10 pics posted at that site, to me 7 look to humiliate prisoner. 3 pics look bad but lets cover those 3.
pic #1 Looks very Bad…but I don’t think dog bit anyone was used to scare prisoner, I could be wrong. My opinion NOT A GOOD IDEA
Pic #2 Looks very bad…How do we know how he got those marks did he come in with them who knows, any info on this pic?
pic #5 Looks somewhat bad…what’s the story? Was he fighting and they did that to restrain him or were the US soldiers just being mean? I don’t know, On my job we have to restrain people every now and again, its not uncommon.
Video UK troops Looks very bad…I dont know whole story. My opinion NOT A GOOD IDEA
I went thru the 10 pics posted at that site, to me 7 look to humiliate prisoner. 3 pics look bad but lets cover those 3.
pic #1 Looks very Bad…but I don’t think dog bit anyone was used to scare prisoner, I could be wrong. My opinion NOT A GOOD IDEA
Pic #2 Looks very bad…How do we know how he got those marks did he come in with them who knows, any info on this pic?
pic #5 Looks somewhat bad…what’s the story? Was he fighting and they did that to restrain him or were the US soldiers just being mean? I don’t know, On my job we have to restrain people every now and again, its not uncommon.
Video UK troops Looks very bad…I dont know whole story. My opinion NOT A GOOD IDEA[/quote]
Let go through each
#1 he is tide and blindfolded a very noise and nasty dog is suddenly put in font of him that he cannot see. Have you ever walked by a fence and a big dog has jumped up growling. This also is in line with George Orwell’s “1984” it is your fear that is the strongest weapon. Also see “The pit” by Poe.
#2 why no medical treatment? Shotgun?
#3 what you cant see is that he is standing on a box. How long has he been standing on the box? What does he think will happen to him if he gets off the box? How heavy is the box he is holding?
#4 troops being stupid and it is degrading to the prisoners.
#5 could be a method of restraint.
#6 how long has he been hanging like this? Why his he hanging like this? For him to hang in this way he must be secured by the ankles. You try it an d see how long you last.
#7 again how long have they been like this.
#8 same
#9 try this for an hour and see how you feel.
#10 part of a video in which this person repeatedly bags his head on a metal door.
A very good friend spent his last 4 year in the army at the forces resistance to interrogation wing in Ashford. They were not allowed to touch any of the service personnel who went through the course but they would break most pilots within 24hrs. The only ones they could not break were SF as they would be RTUed if they did. There was a TV programme in the UK called “SAS are you tough enough”. After a number of weeks doing hard physical work they went through the RtoI for 12 hours, not many completed it.
Torture is not about sticking pins in people, it is about breaking their will. The most effective torture is in the mind not the red hot coals, that is what people do for fun.
The question you should ask, “is this an acceptable why to treat prisoners?”
If you answer yes then do not complain about how US troops where treated in Vietnam.