Use of tracer in BREN guns

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#1

I was invited by a certain forum member to read up about the use of tracer ammunition in the BREN, since he still thinks that it was not done due to the curved magazine. Given that tracer and ball cartridges are identical in outline, I have no idea how he came up with this gem - it’s certainly not mentioned in Jane’s, Smith & Smith’s Small Arms of the World, or Hatcher’s Notebook, which it would be if it had been a problem. So, thanks to the marvels of google, here’s a small selection which should be interesting to the general readership, since the links are mostly war memoirs and this should serve as a small repository for these.

http://www.rootskitchens.co.uk/family/lesstory_meet_lil_before_war.php

28th May. As soon as it was light troop movements along the Therouanne (western) road could be seen from a good observation post on the second floor. Both troops and lorries were fired on by a concentration of every Bren gun with tracer, and made good targets at fourteen hundred yards. This one sided target practice did not last long. Soon the enemy mortars were ranging on the building.

http://www.gordiebannerman.com/bio72.html

Chuck Watson and I had an hour or so to waste. So, armed with a bren gun, 1248 rounds of tracer ammo, and a couple of tommy guns, also lots of ammo, We proceeded down to the river and hip fired at cans, bottles and what ever floated on the fast moving current. We had quite a work out. and a Italian chap came up to us and made signs that he would like to fire the bren gun. So we said okay, showed him how to hold it and said let it go, Fire! Fire he did, but he aimed high,and a magazine of tracers went over the hill going no one knew where. So that was the end of that. Chuck on returning the bren gun was told by Bert Townsend the armourer Sgt that by firing so many tracers we had ruined a barrel. End of borrowing bren guns for hip firing!

http://www.robbysroost.com/mem_commandos.shtml

For the next few days I fought along side the Commandos, as one of them, until they caught up to my battalion. I remember how wide a separation they gave me in any engagement of the enemy during darkness as the Bren I was using fired one tracer every five rounds and would light up the immediate area exposing my position. They thought I was a “crazy Canadian bastard” (their words) which made me even more daring and did wonders for my ego. I was the only Red beret amongst them and although they respected me, I was given a wide berth during any night engagement.

http://www.citinet.net/ak/karlsbad/chapter14.html

For a few moments there was complete bedlam on the German side… falling men… wildly running horses. But front line soldiers as they were, they recovered fast and returned the fire. There appeared multiple puffs of sand in front of us and smacking sounds behind where enemy bullets hit the trees…A painful hiss escaped the bren munitions loader, struck in the leg. The tracer bullets from our machine gun were betraying our position. The enemy kept us pinned down while trying to withdraw behind the barn. They had almost succeeded when I told Janek to hit the barn… For a moment nothing happened… then the whole barn erupted in flames. This time there was no answering fire. The remainder of the German detachment quickly withdrew behind the hill. And a good thing too because we were running short of bren ammunition and the dispatch runner slithering on his belly to our position had an order for me: “Break contact with the enemy and rejoin the Battalion”. There was no pursuit.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.sands/page7.htm

Our barrage started and the first of our own shells fell amongst us in the forward companies.There were about 20 casualties around me before we had even begun to move forward. My section of D company were in the garden of a large Chateau type building by a 14 feet high wall which had been breached by our artillery. I was firing the Bren with my Sergeant, 2933041 A (Sandy) Sinclair reloading for me. I was firing tracer and a German Spandau heavy machine gun pinpointed our position. Sandy took a full burst of machine gun fire through his upper arm. The next burst of fire took the barrel clean off the Bren, and a spent round ricocheted and lodge in my face where the two jaw bones hinge. I went mad. I fitted the spare barrel that we always carried and ran at the Spandau firing the Bren from the hip as I went. I took out the Spandau and the three crew manning it but then I ran into about twelve or so Germans and a Tiger tank. I took out some of the infantry but I had no chance against the tank. I ran back to Sandy (he was in a real bad way, his arm was almost torn away) and dragged him by his collar under cover. I set up the Bren for another expected attack but we were ordered to withdraw. Me and Sandy were taken to a dressing station. I hadn’t noticed the wounds to my legs (only minor), but my jaw hurt like hell. Ten days later I was on my way back into St Honorine, feeling decidedly sorry for myself, head bandaged and blood stained tunic. This time we took and held St Honorine, probably because we had tank support this time.

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/764/ryan.htm

“colors green and red”. German machine gunners loaded a tracer bullet every third round or cartridge. One could certainly see as well as hear what was zipping past your head. The rate of fire of the German MG 42 was like 1200 rounds per minute, providing quite a fireworks effect. Fortunately, the high rate of fire reduced the accuracy considerably. The British Bren had a tracer loaded every seventh round. The rate of fire was around 700 rounds per minute and magazine fed rather than belt fed as was the MG 42, which required a two man operation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A3038564

We also had with us a Bren Gun, with a box of special ammunition. The cartridge magazines were loaded with a mixture of ordinary bullets, some tracer and some incendiary.

http://www.jamesdorrian.co.uk/Pages/chap10area.html

It was time to get ready. I stationed myself behind the funnel with a spare Bren-gun and some 100-round magazines loaded with tracer bullets. One could sense the land close by and smell the mud and seaweed.

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/specoll/AFS/library/4-ww2/AFSletters/11.html

January 2, 1943.
“Now we have been on the move again and have celebrated the New Year. We happened to spend New Year’s Eve right in the middle of a certain very exuberant Division which had its transport scattered for miles around us. It was a lovely bit of rolling country with green grass and little white and yellow flowers blowing in the breeze on every side of us. We sat in our wicker chairs outside the H.Q. office lorry, with a big meal inside us, blowing smoke up into the warm (most unusually so) evening air, rather intoxicated by the freshness of the countryside and the glow of the setting sun in the clear sky. As if by signal, rockets, flares, and every sort of evening fireworks started up all around, and the colors were really very lovely. Tracers were shooting off at a thousand different angles, crisscrossing ell over the sky. One follow would shoot a big yellow flare high up in the air, and then Bren guns with tracer bullets would start shooting a at it from all around. This went on for hours and then at midnight there was a terrific load of stuff thrown up altogether and under the glowing light of flares and rockets we could see everything round about perfectly clearly.”

And something from an ex-Cadet:
http://www.kbnet.com/cgi-bin/read?book=guestbook1967&page=2

Seeing the comments about camps etc, anyone remember CCF summer visits to Sennybridge & Cultybraggan camps? All I seem to remember is episodes like someone operating a bren gun with tracer bullets suddenly veering from the targets to see if he could bag some welsh mutton. Loch water was also bl**dy cold if I recall.

And someting from a 1942 manual:
http://www.weapons.org.uk/bren/manual.html

THE BREN LMG: ONLINE MANUAL
This page is a copy of the Bren Light Machine Gun chapter in the SMALL ARMS MANUAL written by Lt. Col. J. A. Barlow, S.A.C. of The West Yorkshire Regiment published in 1942.
<snip>
Ammunition. Any .303 British Service

QED, mijn heer.

#2

Stoatman,

A very nice book is

The Bren Gun Saga by Thomas B Dugelby, published by Collector Grade Publications, not cheap but with a lot of information about the Bren and it’s Czech ancestors.

Jan

#3

Wait im confused. Can someone explain to me what tracer ammunition is???

#4

Tracer = ball ammo, where the bullets are hollow in the back and the cavity is filled with a pyrotechnical compound, which burns during flight after having been ignited by the powder flash. This way you can follow the flight ofg the bullets. In German called Leuchtspur.

Jan

#5

So basically its usually used at night? But doesnt that make you more vulnerable to attack?

#6

So basically its usually used at night? But doesnt that make you more vulnerable to attack?[/quote]

It’s used during the day too - it’s very visible.

Yes, it can give away your position. Modern tracers have 2 burning compounds one after the other - a dull-burning one 1st & a bright burning one 2nd. This makes the tracer appear to light up about 50m from the firing position, to help to avoid giving the position away.

The reasons for using tracer are marking targets (“Watch My Tracer!”), helping machine-gunners aim (helping with “kentucky windage”, and psychological - you can see it coming at you.

#7

the good an old bren!

#8

In response to our esteemed member’s other point about the mag giving problems, it was only a problem to design. Once the design was perfected, it made the BREN one of the most reliable LMG designs ever.

There’s lots of clever features with the BREN magazine to cope with the rimmed ammunition - the obvious one is the curve. Another is a pressed-steel insert attached to the follower to stop the follower from tipping & causing jams. The third, most clever one is the rearmost reinforcing rib (there’s 2 on the side of the mag - the one I’m talking about is the one nearest the camera):

This reinforcing rib actually holds the rims between itself and the back of the magazine. I discovered this when converting a BREN magazine to feed short-necked blanks. The question was whether a full-length insert was needed to keep them in the correct position, or whether a short insert acting as a feed ramp was possible. On close examination, I discovered that the reinforcing rib held the rims, thus preventing the cartridges from moving forwards in the magazine. So I just cut the follower back & bolted a small block of metal filed into a feed-ramp into the front of the mag.

Another nice BREN piccy:

#9

Man of Stoat, am I right in thinking that the magazines used in the later 7.62 version of the Bren could also be used with the SLR? I’m sure I’ve seen a photo of a Para during the Falklands armed with a scoped SLR with what looked like a Bren mag. I presume some modification to the spring might have been necessary?

#10

Yes, it can be used directly with no issues - the mag spring’s strong enough to push 30rds against gravity - I’ve done it!

#11

The Bren Mk2 and Bren Mk3 were converted to 7.62 Nato (L4A3 resp. L4A2) by installing a body insert into the magazine well to accept FAL magazines, a new chromium plated barrel with a SLR flash hider, a new bolt, a new ejector, a new magazine catch, a new gas shield, a new magazine well cover and a new rear sight calibrated for the 7.62 Nato ammo.

Jan

#12

#13

Is that a TRACER I see streaking out of that BREN?

But but but but but Ironman said that they couldn’t use tracer! :twisted:

Good find, king nothing!

#14

When you refered to "a certain forum member " claiming that tracer was never used in the Bren, I somehow knew you meant Tinwalt. Weird isn’t it? It was just a feeling, like.

Of course, everyone knows you can’t use it past 300 metres…

#15

Someone asked this question:

Bullhockey. I dodge nothing. That’s bullshot. Name one thing that I dodge. Can’t? Right.[/quote]

Here’s a complete thread he’s dodging, since it shows he’s wrong.

#16

Show me where I said tracers were not used in the Bren. Please.

#17

First here:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1909&highlight=tracer#1909

The BAR could also fire tracer, armour piercing, and incendiary rounds, which were unsuitable in the Bren because of it’s curved magazine.

And you re-iterated it here, although the word “commonly” had been inserted, with an invitation to read up on it:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8290&highlight=tracer#8290

Btw, the Bren had problems because of it’s curved mag, and that is why tracer rounds were not commonly used in it. Read about it and see for yourself.

And I did read about it, and I did see for myself that I was correct.

Ladies and gentlement of the jury, I rest my case.

C’mon, ironman, that was too easy! :lol:

edited to fix emboldening

#18

And the Bren did have problems because of the curved magazine, and tracer rounds were not commonly used in it. I never said tracer rounds were not used in it. :idea:

This:

is not what I said, now was it. No, it is not. Nor is it what I thought. :idea:

#19

Aah, so now Ironman replies saying that what he said meant something different. Rien se change!

You said that "tracer, armour piercing, and incendiary rounds, which were unsuitable in the Bren because of it’s curved magazine. "

“unsuitable” would tend to mean “unuseable”.

The problems with the curved mag were DESIGN problems - once a good magazine had been designed, the BREN was one of the most reliable LMG designs ever.

Tracer were very commonly used in it - read the 1st post of this thread, ffs. There’s a guy firing about 1200 rds of just tracer with no problems (apart from burning a barrel out).

I’ve provided many links describing use of tracer in Brens. You have yet to back up your contention. Provide a link where it says that they were NOT commonly used. I betcha can’t.

#20

Here (again) is a link to copy of the Bren Light Machine Gun chapter in the SMALL ARMS MANUAL written by Lt. Col. J. A. Barlow, S.A.C. of The West Yorkshire Regiment published in 1942.

http://www.weapons.org.uk/bren/manual.html

Now, you would have thought that if tracer were “unsuitable” for use in the BREN, then it would be mentioned in the Small Arms Manual?

But no! It says:

Ammunition. Any .303 British Service

And even advises the use of tracer when shooting against aircraft:

As an A.A. mounting the tripod leaves a good deal to be desired, and there is now a tendency to abondon it as such and fire at aircraft from the hip or from a recumbent position. This is quite feasible if tracer ammunition is available, but without such ammunition the problem of hitting a fast moving aircraft without any means of aiming makes this practice of extremely doubtful value, and the cause of a great and inevitable waste of ammunition.

And this problem would have been mentioned in Hatcher’s Notebook or Small Arms of the World..

Are you still flogging this dead horse, ironman?