How was the USSR a big mistake? Russia was one of the most backward countries in the Western world in 1917, and in the period of about 1928 to 1940 it became an industrial power rivaling and even exceeding that of many Western powers. It brought education, electricity, and health care to formerly illiterate peasants.
To quote Winston Churchill…
“Stalin came to Russia with a wooden plow and left it with atomic bombs.”
OFF TOPIC:
USSR lose the information war with the West and it was unable to resist “western values”.
BUT it’s not mean that some ideas of social equality (in USSR) was wrong.
It WOULD have been able to had the correct line of Lenin and Stalin been followed. Clearly the Soviet era, even in the declining decades of Khruschev, Brezhnev- was far better in terms of standards of living than pre-revolutionary times or today.
We must analyze the specific reasons for the problems and reconstruct the correct line in the future. Russia will never prosper or be respected otherwise, even under Putin.
I aggree wits you. Russia must revalue or reconstruct its past in order to correct line in the future.
Very interesting point of view…
I would say every member of the Forum should read this.
Very educational.
“correct line” … of Lenin and Stalin…"
“We must …reconstruct the correct line in the future”…
Before WWII no one bothered to read Mein Kampf. Pity, everything was clearly disclosed there.
Perhaps now the clue to the future can be read from forums like ours?
Cheers,
Lancer44
The two cannot be compared.
I know it’s OFF-TOPIC but I had to write this.
How it is possible, that a State which suffered so much from cruel ideology as communism was, allows its population to believe in so mad and suicidal theory? Why the communist propaganda wasn’t forbidden in Russia immediately after collapse of Soviet Union?
Maybe we wouldn’t have had this discussion if some of forum members hadn’t been exposed to disastrous influence of Russia’s history.
For example, in Germany it is constitutionally forbidden by law (The Constitution) to propagate nazi ideology. Of course it is not possible to eliminate totally the spreading of nazism among some people, but the society has the grounds to prosecute them.
The reason it is clear - the nazi ideology was LETHAL for Germans.
I think we can find the cause of such difference between Germany and Russia if we take closer look at the State’s attiutude towards the society.
In Russia, the society was never a subject. Always a object. Only some tiny groups of privileged nobles had some rights. But whole society?
Never.
It was always treated as a object.
That’s why nobody cares about their state of mind, what they believe etc.
The State doesn’t care if the society’s beliefs are fatal.
The only thing that matters is obedience. Nothing has changed.
There’s no need to improve society’s political and historical awerness as long as it remains obedient.
I hope you’ll never reconstruct the “correct line … of Lenin and Stalin in the future”.
It would be better for you to create a society aware of its rights and strong enough to get rid of rules who don’t respect their own nation.
I wish you that Jasa, Chevan and others.
Could it be that most Russian people know that the propaganda against the USSR is mostly bullshit? Could it be that the fall of Communism and the opening of secret archives actually REFUTED most of this propaganda? Russia survived WWII because of Stalin. Russian had literacy because of Stalin. Russians had free education, housing, health care, and food because of Josef Stalin. Their life-expectancy DOUBLED because of Josef Stalin.
Privatization and the restoration of capitalism is what ruined Russia, not Marxist-Leninism.
I think that Russia would survive the WW2 war because it was Russia and the Russians - no merit for Josef Stalin.
Homo-sovieticus are also because of Josef Stalin. Extermination of milions of Russians is also because of Josef Stalin. Murder of Russia’s intelectual elites is also because of Josef Stalin. Pollution is also because of Josef Stalin. Creation of economy able to produce weapons instead of hi-tech is also because of Josef Stalin. Moral and cultural degradation of a whole nation is also because of Josef Stalin. Creation of the largest slave-work camp that ever existed is also because of Josef Stalin.
Yes, there are plenty of things you should thank Josef Stalin.
By the way, there was nothing to ruin when SU collapsed.
Masterpiece of communist propaganda. I wonder how should be if a member would start to praise and apologise the nazi regime.
Nothing more to comment, nothing more to add from my side.
There is no evidence that Stalin “killed millions of people”.
The country NEEDED heavy industry, not consumer goods. Stalin considered that option but had he done so, the nation would have been crushed by the Nazis. The problems relating to consumer goods can be laid at the feet of Khruschev and his followers.
Nothing to ruin? I know of about 150 million people that beg to differ.
Are you even FROM Poland? You sure as hell don’t live there. How many Poles bitch about Communism and praise their new “free country” and yet won’t even live there? Poland’s biggest export since its “freedom” is Polish people. The west is happy to exploit them for cheap labor and in the case of women- even worse.
It’s common knowledge that privatisation led to the collapse of the Soviet economy. It is also established that this privatisation was conscious and deliberate.
I will ask you Jasa the same question. Are you a Czech or are you a Russian working in Czech Republic??
If you are a Czech, do you remember Prague 1968?
If you are a Russian, are you happy working in Czech Republic?
Shortly a new thread will be split within the existing thread.
Edited: Done.
I am an American citizen of Western Ukrainian descent who moved here, and I am soon moving to Podolsk. I prefer European society.
What happened in 1968 is simply a testament to the bungling and degeneration that occured after Stalin.
PS- Do you have a membership on MootStormfront?
and of course Berlin 1953 and Budapest 1956 were the same, weren’t it?
PS- Do you have a membership on MootStormfront?
Never heard of MootStormfront.
As for Stormfront, we had a member. It was banned due to his racist posts.
As for
I am an American citizen
you should thanks USA for your freedom of speech (including the freedom to praise the communist ideology).
I bet that you didn’t live for a minute under the communists. I’ve met a lot of Westerners praising the communists as an ideology. Westerners that don’t have a clue how it was under a communist regime.
You would question the planets of Solar System beacuse you can’t see them.
There is no sense to discuss with you about Stalin’s crimes.
You’re not able to accept historical facts.
The whole world is lying about that genocide, because it wants to humiliate Great Russia and its heroes…
Yeah, right…
The scale of emmigration is one of the largest polish problems.
But soon it will beacome a problem of whole Europe - because cheap polish workers are taking positions of local workers in the West.
If I were you I would start to worry when Poland decide to lift the visas for Russians. How many of you will come to Poland? And how many of you are already here?
And finally, the case of exploit of Polish women in the West has few times smaller propotions than the case of expoit of Russian women to the West from Russia’s border.
I would not like to discuss such matters, so please do not start with such arguments.
Why you’re trying to miss the point? Why are asking about the Poles?
Are you afraid of answers?
Yeltsin forbid communist party of USSR, not the ideology. Immediately after that communist party of Russia was made (and parties in Ukraine, Belarus…).
Germany and nazi ideology were defeated, so its no wonder this ideology is forbidden (but you are welcome with this ideology in Baltic countries today). Winners write the history.
Subject and object. No. It’s other difference.
It’s a fundamental difference between distinct civilizations, judging what is paramount - society or a individual. It was always individual in the West, and always society, collective, country in Russia. Thus ideals are completely different. If
About correct line about Stalin.
There is famous quote of him - “The garbage which will be piled on my tomb by descendants will be blown off by wind of history”.
I think that Russia would survive the WW2 war because it was Russia and the Russians - no merit for Josef Stalin.
You cant fight with pure heroism in modern world, you need heavy industry. Tzarism was corrupted to the core, so it’s no wonder WW1 was lost by Russia and revolution erupted, the country was desolate. Another famous Stalin quote is from 1930: “We are behind capitalist countries for 50-100 years. We must pass all this way in 10 years or we will be crushed.” Without industrialization USSR could not hope to stop the Germans - they would have stop themselves on Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line which was the whole point of Barbarossa;)
Extermination of milions of Russians is also because of Josef Stalin.
During 1921-1954 (Stalun’s rule) 642980 were judged to highest measure of punishment (shot). Compare with around 2400000 executed during 1919-1921.
Murder of Russia’s intelectual elites is also because of Josef Stalin.
These ‘murdered’ elites made sure the first man in space was Russian, for example.
Pollution is also because of Josef Stalin.
What pollution?
Creation of economy able to produce weapons instead of hi-tech is also because of Josef Stalin.
Weapons industry = high-tech industry.
Moral and cultural degradation of a whole nation is also because of Josef Stalin.
Moral and cultural degradation took place during late years of USSR, because national idea was lost. The peak of degradation was during Yeltsin rule.
By the way, there was nothing to ruin when SU collapsed.
Oh? Nothing to ruin? Where do you think bastards like Abramovich and Berezovsky took their enormous amounts of money? By selling lemonade during hot days? Most part of former USSR infrastructure and industry was plundered by such men which were close to Yeltsin clan. The same was in other descendants of USSR, with the exception of Belarus.
You need to read more.
Reading carefully every post in this debate I started really worry about future of Europe…
Last night I took George Orwell’s “1984” and started to read this book again.
Some arguments in this debate are straight from “1984”.
It is freightening…
Lancer44