Vasili Grossman

I have a doubth, Grossman´s Storys from 1941-1945 are all historical stories or just novels?

And do you have some Grossman´s historical stories from 1941-1945 :smiley:

Thanks a lot

Well if you look up him on the internet I bet you could find alot of stuff about him.
Here is a picture of him

As I know he was rather poetic in the fescription of the events. Can not be used for historical research very much, IMHO.

Speaking about Grossman you mustb remember that during the war he was the frontline journalist of the newspaper “Red Star” writing about concrete heroic deeds or events on the front and after the war he was a novelist, writing books. IMHO collections of his articles can be supposed as historical facts (just a little bit cleared up from war propaganda influence) and book is a author view where he don`t become shy to use his fantasy;)

Here is a link to his literature:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/GROSSMAN/

Well this is the right question were his work a historical or just novels. Thanks Frontovic.
I think we could finde the answer it the role which played the Grossman in the Soviet Unione literature.
He was DE-Facto the Soviet minister of propoganda.
Together with other writers of jewish origin like Ilia Erenburg
and Konstantin Simonov
Grossman was on the head of Soviet anti-nazi propoganda.
The good way to check was his work a history or the novells is to read one of his work “Treblinca hell” on the source which was given to us by the honest Sturmfuhrer
http://lib.ru/PROZA/GROSSMAN/trebl.txt
just a short part of it:

…Лагерь No 1 существовал с осени 1941 года по 23 июля 1944 года. Он был
ликвидирован полностью, когда заключенные слышали уже глухой гул советской
артиллерии.
23 июля ранним утром вахманы и эсэсовцы, распив для бодрости шнапса,
приступили к ликвидации лагеря. К вечеру были убиты и закопаны в землю все
заключенные. Удалось спастись варшавскому столяру Максу Левиту, раненным
пролежал он под трупами своих товарищей до темноты и уполз в лес. Он
рассказал, как, лежа в яме, слушал пение тридцати мальчиков, перед
расстрелом затянувших песню “Широка страна моя родная”, слышал, как один из
мальчиков крикнул: “Сталин отомстит!”, слышал, как упавший на него в яму
после залпа вожак мальчиков, любимец лагеря, Лейб, приподнявшись, попросил:
“Пане вахман, не трафил, проше пана еще раз, еще раз”.

…Camp No 1 existed from autumn of 1941 on 23 July, 1944. It was liquidated completely, when it was already heard the deaf rumble of Soviet artillery.
On 23 July early in the morning Vakhman’s and SS men( He called Vashman as gemans servicment of camp- my comments), after drinking for the cheerfulness of shnaps , began the liquidation of camp. Toward the evening all prisoners were killed and buried in the earth. It was only rescued the Warsaw joiner Max Levit, he was wounded and lay under the corpses of his comrades to the darkness it crept away into the forest. It described, as, lying at the pit, he listened to singing thirty boys, before the shooting who tightened song “it was wide the country my native”(Soviet propogandig song -my comment) , he heard, as one of the boys it shouted: “Stalin will take vengeance!”, heard, as the fallen to it into the pit after volley leader of boys, the favorite of camp, Leyb, after raising, asked: " Pane Vakhman, ne trafil, proshe Pane eshe raz, eshe raz"( from polish - Pan Vakhman,you don’t hit me ,ome more time , one more) .

Nice story don’t you think? :wink:
One wounded jew lying in the bottom of ditch under the bodies of killing peoples listen as " thirty polish boys all together sing the Soviet song and one of them shout the “comrade Stalin will vengeance to you”.

This is the most stupid which i read somewhen ;).
His work are not history and not novell - this is stupidest ZIONIST propoganda which in that time was joined with the SOVIET propoganda ,which based on the lie. Nothing more.
And we know today there were no mass graves were founded in the Treblinca.
If Spilberg in his famouse “Shindler list” showed something simular he would be ridiculed publically.
The work of soviet jewish propogandists command played from one hand the positive role - it gave birth to the hatred to the Germany and joined the USSR community but from the other hand - it much rise the wave of violence to the German population in 1945.(What’s is character - The soviet command understood the danger of such jewish vengeance in soviet press - therefore Erenburd publically was subjected to the criticism in the aipril 1945)
For instanse the Erenberg very liked to write the verses like “Kill the german”- the open call to the henocide of German polpulation.
One of the “lovely” method of soviet jewish propogandists was to tell about jewish of Holocaust as about “Soviet citizents”. When simple Red army soldier read a article about “millions soviet peoples who was shoted in death-camps” his heart was filled by hatred to the all Germans. Certainly if in soviet press published the article about “jewish victims” this would had no simular effect to the Red Army, becouse although the anti-semitism was the criminal in the USSR but a lot op peoples remember about jewish Big Red terror in 1921-22 above native russian intelligence population.
His friends Simonov and Grossman were also very liked to “substitute the concepts” in its propogandic work.
This look like a competition who had “reseach” a more terrible way of soviet people (i/e/ jewish) killing - thus there was developed a “soap from the bodies” lie.
In fact after the war the some jewish western organisation blamed the USSR in the concealmentof the jewish victims in death-camps. This is not surprising- they just forget that all the soviet lie were developed by the jewish propogandists in its aim.
This propogandic command in Moscow work such “succesfully” that even Hoebbels was angered: He had blamed the Erenburg as lier. He simply could not admit that somebody use his own propogandic slogan"The more insolent the lie the better in it they believe".

Cheers.

Just a short addon for Chevan’s post.

Here is a passage (app. half of the article) from the article “Kill!” by Ilia Ehrenburg printed in the “Red Star” newspaper 24-July-1942.
Taken from http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/KILLHIM.HTM

[INDENT]

We know all. We remember all. We understood: germans are not humans. From now on word “german” for us is the worst curse. From now on word “german” fires a rifle. Lets not talk. Lets not complain. Lets kill.
If you have not killed at least one german - your day was a waste. If you think your neigbour will kill a german today instead of you, then you have not understood the danger. If you dod not kil a german, he will kill you. He will take your dear ones and will hurt them in his terrible Germany. If you can not kill a german with a bulet, kill him with a byonet. If there is no fighting going on on you stretch of the front line, if you are waitng for a fight, then kill a german before the fighting starts. If you spare life of a german he will hang a russian and rape a russian woman. If you have killed one german, then kill another one - there is nothing funnier for us then german corpses.
Do not count days. Do not count miles. Count one thing: germans killed by you. Kill a german! - your old mother begs you for it. Kill a german! - babies beg you for that. Kill a german! - your mother land calls you. Do not miss. Kill!

[/INDENT]

The comments are left for you…

Agree with comments above :slight_smile:

But one has to remember it’s difficult to find “frontline” journalist who can stay objective during the long fierce war. Even if govt isn’t pressing journalist (to do propaganda), he has to face strong one-sided emotions day after day.

_

Alephh:

You are right. But the articles like the one I posted are way over the line. When I read such materials I feel unclean aftherwards.
In fact IMHO the author, Mr.Ehrenburg, did not mean really what he wrote. At leat not to such a degree. But it actually makes it even worse. Because ordinary readers were under the influence anyway. One should think how his words will echo in the future. Words are material!

As I said, I agree :slight_smile:

But in wartime, it’s always easier to describe the enemy as “not human” (subhuman, terrorist, monster, barbaric, whatever…), so killing them in the battle is easier for own soldiers. To do that, writer need to exaggerate. But after the war, normally, that text/style serves no purpose.

But how and where do you draw a line, when your job is “not to tell the truth”?

Just wondering the original question on a broader scale: reliability of “historical” stories by “frontline” journalists…

Maybe one can make a different question:

Is there even one frontline journalist who can be trusted as a source of history?

And if the answer is “no, they cannot be trusted.”

…then what’s the point of having frontline journalists? Couldn’t those guys just be in the bar near HQ writing stories what they hear from soldiers away from frontlines… ;-D

Good writer can write pretty plausible text about most anything, without actually experiencing it himself.

Reminds me about Enric Marco, who wrote a book about being in the concentration camp, but in 2005 he admitted that he never was.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3122

_

Comrads, writing my previous post I wanted to mention “jewish quistion”, but I supposed it wouldnt be intiresting for non Russian visiters of this site. as far as it on agenda, so Id like to say, Grossman had no opportunity to write somthing outgoing normal military propaganda style during the war.
All his other literature was didicated to decoration of jewish suffering or jewish tremendious help to win the war.

Sturmfuhrer:

Grossman had no opportunity to write somthing outgoing normal military propaganda style during the war

What do you mean?