War kayak used by Royal Marine commandos

World War II British Military
#1

Hi all, I stumbled on this on a turkish museum web page.
Can’t find any other mention of this craft. I e-mailed Grumman to see if they had any confirmation, but none so far… I also e-mailed the museum to see if there was a manufactures plate with date, etc. but nope.

"This rare and important craft was made in about 1941 by the Grumman Aircraft Corporation of America. (not so sure about that, since I can’t find anyone who has a record of it)
*** EDIT *** Grumman Corporation has nothing to do with this craft -

It is made of aluminium, and breaks down into three sections. The bow and stern compartments are watertight, with a locking hatch so they can store weapons and/or explosives. The centre section has two openings for the crewmen to sit in and the boat would either be paddled (outriggers retracted) or sailed (outriggers extended). The rudder was foot-operated via cables within the hull. These boats were used in WWII by special forces such as the Royal Marine Commandos, and Special Boat Section: they would be launched from submarines some distance from the target, and then, after the raiding party had returned to rendezvous with the submarine at sea, they would be scuttled."

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#2

Try an email to
http://alliedspecialforces.org/anthonykemparchivesldetachmentsummary.htm

#3

Not sure if they were ever used being of aluminium construction.

See here for use of other types…

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/cockleshell_heroes_of_1942.htm

http://www.specialoperations.com/History/WWII/Cockleshell.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Commandos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frankton

The cockles were all of fabric construction, perhaps the aluminium would be used later or for longer jobs?

cockle canoes.
http://people.brunel.ac.uk/~acsrrrm/kayak/cockle.html

I beleivbe that it is possible to fire a mortar from a cockle, or at least the ones currently in use by teh SBS, read it in a book somewhere. And they split down in to two parts.

Could you tell us the page you found it on?

#4

Been on the grumman pages, there

is some info of construction of aluminium canles but only at the end of the war.

http://www.newsday.com/community/guide/lihistory/ny-past516,0,5473146.story?coll=ny-lihistory-navigation

http://www.2neatmagazines.com/life/1943.html

#5

Do they split into two parts normally, or just moments after the mortar fires? :smiley:

Even a Japanese type so called “Knee mortar” http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/001248.html (about halfway down page) had a kick, but a canoe or kayak isn’t likely to survive a 60mm or 81mm mortar discharge.

Apart from anything else, to get anything approaching vaguely accurate fire how do they have the necesary distance for the aiming stakes? http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-90/ch5.htm

Having spent a bit of time in small boats, unless the firing platform is equipped with some pretty sophisticated gyros etc there is no prospect that any round will be placed by reference to an earlier round. It seems to me that it’s a totally useless firing platform for any gun as the first round can’t be placed accurately, and neither can the rest.

I can’t imagine why they’d have mortars on folboats and the like when a PIAT type round in WWII and much more sophisticated rounds nowadays would make more sense.

#6

The claim was about a recent boat, around 1970-80s. They could have been used for illumination, or smoke, likewise they could have just been used to fire once beached. Like I say, never used the boats for mortar, although I have paddled them.

I am guessing the aluminium canoe may never have actually been used. ALuminium would have been better used for aircraft than a throwaway (essentially) canoe.

#7

Fair enough! :slight_smile:

I was thinking only of WWII wood - canvas folboats

Quite possible as a base for a very light mortar for non-directional fire, which I didn’t think about in the context you mention.

They’d still need a solid base, which I suspect might be more than a bit of thin plywood in the base of a WWII expendable canvas folding boat.

Modern stuff might overcome the problem. Water is fluid but incompressible and with a decent surface area above it on a steady surface might hold repeated mortar charges. An aluminium boat with a relatively rigid hull might distribute the force much better than a canvas folboat.

There’s still a huge problem with registering fire.

At best they’re a base for non-directional or random gun fire.

#8

Hi all, here’s the site where I found this,
http://www.rmk-museum.org.tr/english/exhibit/marine.html
They removed the kayak from the page
(probably too much inquiries about it, he he)
I was aware of the links you guys kindly posted, that’s exactly as far as it gets for now. Still a mystery boat, and that’s understandable, given the nature of the missions it was involved with. I doubt they took the time to take pictures during missions, and if they did, it was probably classified. But maybe in training?
Thanks for trying !

#9

Maybe you should look at post-war stuff.

Grumann, like many war manufacturers, played with a lot of stuff after the war when aluminium was perhaps the most plentiful and cheap material. We wouldn’t have the Land Rover without it.

The museum tag might not be accurate.

#10

If used during the war then the pics must be out by now. 50 year rule and all that. Highly likely that they have pulled it because they do not know for sure if it was a WW2 design. The Grumann sites I have been on all seem to point to Aluminium canoes being manufactured after the war, or very late on.

Admittedly these may have been developed from an early war time design, ie this picture. But can’t see why this would be so secret. Likewise if it had been a secretive unit, why did the boat survive?

For the mortars, I beleive the boats are still wood and canvas, but are fitted with a sort of board in the bottom for the mortar. It is probably the British 51 mm light mortar that is used. The book I read this in was about the SBS, by a member of that group. Can’t remember it’s title.

More here on the 51mm mortar.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/pw/pw_lm.htm

Here is another canoe used during world war 2 by the SOE (Special Operations Executive).

The Sleeping beauty, submersible and electric powered.

More here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soe_gallery_11.shtml

Another picture here, I don’t know why it is described as “semi-submersible” in the other link if able to do this…

It would come to the surface for navigation purposes.

#11

More on the SBS kayak here…

Two-man kayak-type canoes are used by the SBS due to their stealth capability, portability and reliability. The latest model known to be in service is the Klepper Aeres Mark 13.

From http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/United_Kingdom/Royal_Marines/SBS_Profile.htm

More here including the following (just to prove I am not talking rubbish!!! :smiley: )

http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/whatson/exhibitions/display.var.1113964.0.folding_canoe_on_display.php

Klepper invented the boat to respond to the soaring popularity of canoeing in Europe. Seeing a gap in the market for a highly portable boat he designed a canoe with a collapsible wooden frame and waterproof skin, which is still used today.

Even the military recognised the genius of Klepper’s design and the canoes are still used by the Special Boat Service for covert operations. The canoe’s small size means they are light enough to carry and be hidden easily. They can also be dropped to the water from helicopters or surfaced by divers and some are even designed to fit a machine gun or mortar.

Ben Lumby, Exhibition Manager, said: “These are just such ingenious boats and their 100 year old design still holds in today’s high-tech world. The SBS still use them for operations and I’d quite like one for the back of my car!”


Showing the strength of the design.

#12

Mil style Klepper.

More on the SBS.

http://www.specialboatservice.co.uk/sbs-operations.htm

In this age of high-tech warfare, it may seem strange that the SBS are still using canoes, equipment that hasn’t essentially changed much since World War 2 but the reality is that these non-metallic canoes still provide an effective, stealthy method of moving small teams of men around enemy coastlines and waterways.

The Klepper canoes can be broken down into 2 parts so that the 2 man crew can carry them on their backs across country or hide them effectively. A GPMG or mortar(!) can be fitted and crew members may carry anti-tank rockets to deal with enemy surface craft.

The Kleppers are also versatile in the way they can be deployed. They can be launched from other boats and surfaced submarines or carried to the surface by divers. Kleppers can be parachuted from C130s into the ocean or dropped out the back of RAF Chinooks.

see http://www.specialboatservice.co.uk/klepper-canoes.htm

#13

And from http://www.taranelektronik.com/Klepper/id1.htm

#14

If I remember correctly, the guy who answered my e-mail at the museum said that it has been recovered at the bottom by divers in the meditenanean. As to where and when, no details…
As for the aluminium, compared to canvas, the added strenght surely gave more sea-worthy and loading capacity than canvas folding boats. Even if aluminium was a strategic material, it doesn’t take too much to make one.
Does anyone know of a Royal Marine veterans association web site?
Thanks for keepin diggin’ !

#15

It could be a post war kayak, used by day trippers, and sunk by them!!! :smiley:

Unlike the wood and canvas, it would stay together quite well.

Google RM vets or RM association, I am sure something will come up.

#16

Also strange is the fact that this was on Turkish museum’s web page…
Turkey was not involved in ww2?
And if it was sunk, it was intentional. These boats don’t sink easily, having air-tight compartments like all modern fiberglass kayaks.

I guess I’ll have to go there and examine it myself!

#17

I’m not surprised the US Army got rid of that thing it’s a monster at 121 lbs. The L16 that is used by a lot of armies now is about 40kg all up (but am willing to be corrected as I can not find my notes). And a crew of 5? Even with a crew of 3 we still have one spare to make the brew.

They are talking about the 51/2in and probably for illum. To fire put a lump of wood between your legs and no problem.

As for the metal, you are not thinking outside the box. The canoe needs to be functional not impregnable. Aluminium has no added vantages over canvas in this instant as both produce a rigid hull but canvas can be flat and folded unlike ally. Also think of getting the thing out of a sub when it is rigid. The noise factor should be taken into account as well, bang the side of an empty metal boat against a metal ship and it makes a lot of noise, but a wooden one does not. And not to forget radar.

Now list the advantages of ally?

#18

I’m not surprised the US Army got rid of that thing it’s a monster at 121 lbs.

where did you find this info?

As an owner of a 22 ft fiberglass tandem sea kayak, that weight sounds right, mine’s about 100 lbs. (but all in one part).

as for the little advantage of metal over canvas,
rigidity and capacity are the main ones. The fact that it has a sail and outriggers indicate that it was used in deep sea instead of rivers. Also mentionned is watertight compartments. (klepper type boats are more of the open-top kind, covered by a sea skirt)

Anyone having paddled into 10 ft waves (I did) would prefer the sturdiness over the lightweight, canvas type.
But this is not an argument about the design and which is best, I just want to know more about this particular one!
If you have more info on this, I really want to know if this is 1941 design and what is it doing in Turkey?

#19

Air bags can be used, they don’t have to be compartmentalised, equipment and bags of air can be shoved in to the voids.

Wood and canvas is surprisingly sturdy, see picture inmy post with the guy standing on the boat.

Have you any more info on the design, etc? How do you know it is 1941?

Just for interest, I am searching quite madly at the moment. :smiley:

#20

I can not find any mention of any canoes being constructed by Grumman prior to 1944.

Bill Hoffman and John Achilich
Bill Hoffman, on vacation from building fighter aircraft during World War II, took a canoe trip in the Adirondacks in the summer of 1944. Finding wood and canvas canoes fragile and heavy, and knowing how to stretch form shapes into alum-inum, he founded Grumman Canoe.

From http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/2000_1/feature2.htm