My view is that Germany got off lightly after the war as the West wanted to encourage prosperity and avoid the mistakes of Versailles in order to prevent all of Germany becoming Communist. Some incredibly light sentences were handed out to some serious criminals.
What are your thoughts?
Well, most of the Supreme Nazi War Criminals were sentenced at the Nuremburg trials (Along with others)
Although some escaped, many were captured by the Mossad (ie: Eichmann, Dr. Mangala)
Others were taken in by either the Soviet Union or the United States for research, work, etc. For instance, Claus Barbie was turned into a CIA operative (Later Imprisoned) and Wehrner Von Braun turned into a United States ICBM Designer (My grandfather worked personally with him).
So, I guess they didn’t get off fair enough. Braun should have been hung for slave labor, and the same with Barbie.
The German population didn´t executed jews or any other kind of minoritys -> The indoctrinated and brainless followers did - like von Gottberg said, most of the criminals got punished in the Nürmberger Prozesse.
We are still suffering - Israel blames on us, but mess up with palestina and terroises the neigbour countrys - some politicans really think we have to feel like sheeps - hell no - i wasn`t there, and anybody can blame on me or anybody other who “wasn’t there”.
Are you living in Germany? Can you feel what a German feel? Do you know how life is in Germany? … “Saw something in the TV …” not really?
What would be Europe when the Morgenthau Plan would have been fullyfied? A better Europe? Noooo i don´t think so. Would have been like it is today in the Middle East …
Though German citizens did murder/butcher (Usually hanging) Allied airmen after a crash landing, parachute drop, etc. at Hamburg and Dresden. BUT, like Splinter said, they were brainwashed by Goebells into doing these crimes. He tried to get the civilians to kill the airmen, because he knew if the military did it they would be charged with war crimes. But technically, civilians aren’t fighting.
Personaly i do not the germans peoples needs to be more punished that it was durinf and right after ww2.
The firebombing of Germany and soviet “revenge- liberation” was enough.
Sure the germans has never feeled the simular terror like it was in the occuped Eastern territories, and sure a lot of Nazy war crime run away to the Argentine, Near East, Canada or even USA and Britain ( as the most of the East front war criminals were).
But i/m really do not think the simple germans are guilt.( Althought they loved Hitler and believed his race-superiority theories during the war)
Personaly i thankfull for them for the care about soviet mass graives in the Germany( the Germany is ONLY SINGLE state of Europe that hold the its promising for the Gorbachev to care about soviet post-war monuments).
Israel not just blaimed the Germany ( like and nowadays Poland , Austrua and Switzelznd) but demand the gian money compensation for the jews .
Most pof that money goes not to the real victims of holocoast but to the jewish publics and political organisations that besides supported ( and serviced in Mass media) the Israel agressive politic.
As far as i know the Germany had already paid them about 100 billion of marks. Next turn for the Poland.
Really the Israel ( exactly the world jewish organisation) blaming toward the Germany looks funny especially when in the last year the Israel lost the any feeling of the moral limits and bagan the attack of Lebanon ( using the USA political support- i’m sory for our american friends for the frankness).
- Are you living in Germany? Can you feel what a German feel? Do you know how life is in Germany? … “Saw something in the TV …” not really?
Actually what do we know about REAL germans and why do we sure the germans supported our poit of view at the WW2 events;)
Tell us please more mst. Splinter
I agree. Between bombing and occupation, the Germans suffered as well. And punitive measures such as reparations and all that will not bring the dead back…
The German People suffered badly. Their homes, families, farms were all but completely distroyed, The ruffians who caused the suffering got it too easily they were helped to exit this life quickly, albeit by the end of a rope. The citizen had to suffer long for the crimes of others. I am amazed at the quickness of reconstruction even with the suffering. :arrow: 
Well insofar as starting the war I think they got what they deverved. Yet after the war most just wanted to make sure something like that wouldnt happen again. I think things were about right. Yet no reason to kick a horse while is down.
Most Nazis, which is different to most Germans, got away with what they did.
There was no justice in some Nuremberg and other post-war legal proceedings, any more than there was with the Japanese. The trials were in some cases little better than Hitler’s and Stalin’s show trials.
Sure, some big fish got tried and punished, but they couldn’t have existed without millions of little fish, almost all of whom got away and who were the real problem, collectively and individually. Goering wasn’t in attendance at every eviction or street bashing or destruction of the business of some poor Jew. Nobody ever got dealt with for that.
The marvellous thing about post-war Germany was that there were no Nazis left. The only thing more marvellous was post-war France, which had had its Vichy tongue as far up Hitler’s arse as it could manage, where during the war (the main years of it that France wasn’t involved in) the bulk of the people continued to live satisfactorily under the Nazis but, magically, after the war the whole population had all been members of the Resistance. Nobody in post-war France had any idea who, for example, had been putting French Jews on trains to the gas chambers.
There was no more reason to punish Germany for its conduct than Vichy France, because not everyone in those nations was responsible for what happened.
There was every reason to punish the individual Germans and French who supported the Nazis for their conduct, along with oft forgotten others who couldn’t get their tongues far enough up or quickly enough up Hitler’s arse in the Balkans etc.
But it was just too hard.
Plus the Americans needed Wernher von Braun etc, not to mention the animals from Harbin etc.
The worst individuals who were most closely connected to the worst acts usually got away, as did the average people who just had a bit of fun beating up Jews and informing on other people who went to the concentration camps, while the figureheads went down symbolically. And left the countless real bastards in the post-war population.
The way I read the pole question it is about Germans, i.e. about a nation. Maybe the intention of the pole was different, but the way it is formulated it is about a nation as a whole.
I woted “The Germans paid reasonably heavily for their crimes.”. I actually was intended to wote for “Yes - The Germans paid heavily for their crimes.” first, but I normally try to avoid choosing extereem answers in the poles. (unless if ti is related to my salary satisfaction! )
I think the Germans as a collctive entity suffered badly the consequences of the war.
Well i voted personally for about right - the russians wanted their revenge and the french also, for their pride.
I think the Americans and the British had been quite gentle - but in fact, like you see nowadays it really pays off.
I have a good friend in St. Petersburg, and when we once made a small trip there (that was when i was about 17 Years old ^^) i really felt, that the russian population doesn’t feel any real anger about the Germans (for sure some think we are western agents, but they mean something other in their mind ;)) - also, there will always be some “boomans” in every nation, but the majority was really friendly.
My mothers family had a big store in Stettin (was a big one at a V-Crossroad somwhere in the center - i have a photograph) and in the war they got bombed out and where pushed out of their motherland and lost all - but i don’t anger about anything and i don’t blame on Russians, Polands etc. because the same happened to them. That’s history, and i think we all learned about it and it was probably the best way to end this bad era of German history.
The fact, that more and more other nations are interessted in history and don’t see Germany as a state which you have to treat with caution, underlines the way, like Germany acted after the war, because of the better treatement like after the WW1.
Germany showed its pity and its shame about all the things that happened (Brandts kneefall e.g.) and in the following time its status growed and most of the states, which had been involved in any military actions against Germany showed forgivefulness and earned respect in the German population, like France e.g. - but there also some stats, who don’t know where to stop this kind of blaiming about history - and somewhen you have to say STOP! I mean, when my childs get blaimed for things my fathers father did, i will be really pi**ed off :neutral:
Splinter - Chill!
No one is saying that you or your children etc are responsible - of course not - so stop acting as if you are a victim.
The original question was raised by me as the Germans did so many bad things and so many were involved in these - my feeling is that justice was not handed out to all those it should have been.
For example someone posted elsewhere the following statement: “REIMAHG only managed to produce some twenty-seven Me 262 jet fighters by the end of the war. The work was done mostly by foreign forced laborers, some 991 of whom died during their nine months at “Lachs.”” - I wonder if those responsible for the welfare of these forced labourers were ever brought to justice? I expect some were but from the trails that I have read few perpetrators were brought to justice and the sentences handed out were frequently just a few years in prison despite the enormity of the human suffering caused.
Below is just one of countless examples:
From the New York Times:
"Former Nazi to Appeal A Life Sentence in Italy
Published: March 9, 1998
A former Nazi officer said today that he would appeal his war crimes conviction and life sentence to the European Court of Human Rights.
An Italian military appeals court on Saturday upheld the conviction of the former SS captain, Erich Priebke, 85, and raised his sentence to life. He had been scheduled to be released in two months.
Mr. Priebke was found guilty of helping carry out a massacre of 335 civilians in German-occupied Rome in 1944. He was allowed to serve his sentence under house arrest because of frail health.
In an interview with RAI state television, Mr. Priebke was asked if he would take his case to the European Court in Strasbourg, France. ‘‘Naturally we will,’’ he answered.
Mr. Priebke’s lawyers have said they will appeal to Italy’s Supreme Court, the final appeals court for military and civilian cases.
The military court on Saturday also gave a life sentence to former SS Maj. Karl Hass, also 85, for helping to carry out the 1944 massacre near the Ardeatine Caves outside Rome."
My point being that many Germans after the war - whether they had just taken part in the endemic looting of Jewish houses and businesses or been involved in deaths of slave labourers in their work place got off very lightly. Is my observation and perception incorrect? Or should Mr Priebke be pardoned as 335 civilian deaths is trivial after 60 years has elapsed?
Of course there were many other nationalities who also “got off lightly”, but to a lesser degree than the huge crimes perpetrated by the Germans - an example is below:
“Maurice Papon died on Feb. 17, 2007, aged 96, in a private hospital in Paris, following heart surgery. Papon, a French bureaucrat and cabinet minister, was the highest-ranking Frenchman to have been found guilty of collaborating in the deportation of French Jews to Nazi death camps during World War II.”
Chevan - Off topic I know but personally I think it is disgusting that some Soviet war graves are being desecrated in Eastern Europe. Whatever the politics they are still the graves of brave young men who never had what we have today.
Near where my parents live in Saltby, Leicestershire, UK there is a monument built by Ukrainian PW (Prisoners of War) stationed there at the end of the war. The Ukrainians would help on farms and the like but - I believe - they were repatriated to the USSR - who knows what became of them?!
However the monument they built is no wlittle more than a pile of eroded bricks at the road side which I doubt any one there knows about - yet to me it is an intriguing piece of history on the verge of being lost for ever.
to be honest, the great “denazification” (“Entnazifizierung”) never took place. okay, the major league of nazis got what they deserved and even other low-ranking soldiers got punished, but the allies had other problems right after WW2 than finding out who was a true nazi and who was not. the threat from the east was present and germany was finished, so the focus was soon laid on a strategy to make a new strong germany with armed forces that could at least stand against the red invasion. it was mainly the americans that wanted germany to be rearmed in the early 50s! the germans were quite fed up with war at that time. the fact that a lot of former SS and wehrmacht-members were the first leaders in the new bundeswehr shows clearly that the denazification never was done so intense than it maybe should have been.
jens
IMHO that’s the critical reason why Germany was accepted again into Europe - the politicians had the courage to recognise what their country had done, apologise for it and take steps to ensure it never happened again.
Personally I draw that line at people who were above the age of criminal responsibility on the 7th of May 1945 and who did nothing to oppose the Nazis (the great majority of the population at the time). The only responsibility I see among those younger than this is to remember what happened and ensure it never happens again - something the Germans (unlike the Japanese) are very good at.
Indeed, Germany has perhaps gone too far in swearing off war, but for very good historical reasons that I fully understand. When my aunt (German, and in her 70s) found out I was joining the TA (UK army volunteer reserve) her response was “men are so selfish wanting to go away and fight - why can’t we all get along”. It was a real struggle not to remind her of what happened last time we tried that one, but out of respect to my parents I managed (somehow).
Contray to what some people said, rural Germany (at least in the West, the East was affected by socialisation and disowning of farm land after the war under Communist rule, who basically wanted to install the Kolchos system), was barely affected by the war.
Actually farmers got stinking rich in the immideate post war period, because they had acces to unregistred food (not registered into the rationing system) and demanded extortionist prices for their produce from city dwellers, who needed to use the black market to improve on the meagre food rations.
Another thing: There is a small village not far from where I live. Before the Nazis the population was roughly 1/3 Catholic, 1/3 Lutheran and 1/3 Jewish. The Jews got driven out and deported and some of their neighbors seized their farmland cheaply. It is still known today who enriched himself during this time, but apparently nobody of the Jewish families survived, there seem not to have been any claims made against the new owners.
Jan
This is also the attitude of Israel towards Germans and Austrians. Anybody of my grandparent’s generation must answer a tough questionaire about his past and will be background checked before he will get a visum, but us younger ones can travel freely.
Concerning the Japanese, I blame General McArthur. In his rabid anticommunism, he was too fast to let the old Japanese elites get back into power, which they did in form of the Liberal Democrat Party (LDP), which ruled Japan for most of it’s postwar history and is highly corrupt.
They, of course, had no interest in showing the true history, including their guilt, and kept on censoring curricula and textbooks in schools, so that the children are essentiallyb being taught that WW2 was forced upon Japan by the US and Britain, with Japan being a victim due to the nuclear bomb attacks, while ignoring nasty things which happened, like massacres, abuse and war crimes. Add to this an even greater reluctance (due to the saving face culture) of veterans to openly speak about what was going on and militant violent right wing ultra nationalist groups, often connected to the Yakuza mafia, wo are not afraid to use political assasination, also reminding of the history of the 1920s, when the Japanese right forced their way to power.
Another thing is that, same as in Europe, history is often considered boring by school students, so the result is that most younger Japanese are being brainwashed about their country’s history.
On the other hand I have met Japanese abroad, who for the first time saw documentation about the rue face of WW2 in Asia and they were shocked and became highly critical of their country’s government.
Jan
It wasn’t just MacArthur, although he was one of the major culprits. The policy decision was made to turn Japan into a western satellite as fast as possible, and if that meant covering up war crimes then they were willing to do so. This led to fiascos such as an indicted Class A war criminal becoming the Japanese Prime Minister within about a decade of the end of the war, war criminals enshrined at Yasukuni, the Emperor’s reputation being whitewashed to conceal his involvement in war crimes, etc. Frankly I don’t think it was a very bright idea and at the back of my mind is the worry that we might have to fight them again some day because of it. I do not have that fear with Germany.
Well Splinter thanks for the feedback;)
I understand what you mean.I/m agree the GErmany sould not be the for ever blaiming for the WW2. And i do not think the Germany must be the scapegoat for all war crimes.