What do you think about it dear Russian friends?

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#1

Katyn Forest is a wooded area near Gneiezdovo village, a short distance from Smolensk in Russia where, in 1940 on Stalin’s orders, the NKVD shot and buried over 4000 Polish service personnel that had been taken prisoner when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in September 1939 in WW2 in support of the Nazis.
[NKVD- Narodny Kommisariat Vnutrennikh Diel.
If you are Polish, NKVD means “Nie wiadomo Kiedy Wroce do Domu. Impossible to tell when I will return home.”]

In 1943 the Nazis exhumed the Polish dead and blamed the Soviets. In 1944, having retaken the Katyn area from the Nazis, the Soviets exhumed the Polish dead again and blamed the Nazis. The rest of the world took its usual sides in such arguments.

In 1989, with the collapse of Soviet Power, Gorbachev finally admitted that the Soviet NKVD had executed the Poles, and confirmed two other burial sites similar to the site at Katyn. Stalin’s order of March 1940 to execute by shooting some 25,700 Poles, including those found at the three sites, was also disclosed with the collapse of Soviet Power. This particular second world war slaughter of Poles is often referred to as the “Katyn Massacre” or the “Katyn Forest Massacre”.

Katyn is a subject that arouses very deep passions. There are many views as to what happened, why and how, and with what consequences. There are also some who say that it never happened, “but if it did the Nazis did it.”
If you follow the topic of Katyn at all, you will soon see a wide range of opinions, dates, names and other “facts” sprayed about on the subject, on the net and in print. Like much of life and history, one believes what one chooses.

I would like to ask what you think about the whole story…
Russian friends - tell us openly what you think about Katyn…

Lancer44

#2

I am not russian but only want to make a side note for those who dont know it.

Poland was the country wich (comparatively) lost more population, about 22 %.

The poles had to withstand the german Einsatzgruppen, and the soviet NKVD.

#3

When i hear about Katyn , Lancer, from poles, my head begin to ill.
I assume that NKVD could killed 25 000 poles, but in Russia bolshevics in 1917-41 murder over 20 millions. So i don’t undesrtand why modern Russia quilty in bolshevic therror, as some poles think. If they need compensation, let they demand it from Israel.
But it’s some problem in Katyn. Althought “Gorbachev finally admitted that the Soviet NKVD had executed the Poles” , but there are no any providens of that in soviet arhives. The spesial comission which exhumed the Polish grave in 1944 proved that poles were cilled by germans weapons. But somebody think that NKVD use german guns.
Its very strange tragical story, but i think today Katyn bacame the barrier between normal Russian-Polish relationship. And its sadly.

#4

I agree with you. This story should not become any barrier in normal relationship between two countries. It should not affect contacts between young generations, however I have to regret that some irresponsible fanatics are trying to use Katyn as “thermometer” in Russian-Polish relationship.
(Unfortunately elements of this political orientation are in power now…)

Explanation that bolshevics killed 20 million of Russians is not really rational.
Yes, it was great tragedy and millions of individual human tragedies.
Very regrettable. But it dosn’t justify murdering 25,000 prisoners of war.
It was Soviet Union which decided to invade Poland , it was Red Army which took these people as POWs. And it was legal soviet government which decided to liquidate them.
Todays Russia is a legal continuity of Soviet Union. Russia paid soviet international debts without hesitation, yet Russia refuses to open it’s archives to conduct proper investigation.

And when I hear from Russians like you about “german weapons”, and “special commision”… it is a joke.
Burdenko’s commision proved nothing. Even kangaroo court in Nuremberg refused to submit soviet lies and punish Germans for Katyn.

I hope that the fact that we can exchange views on this forum without unnecessary emotions and in friendly manner is a good sign.

Lancer44

#5

Dear Lancer, If you want the truth, come to Moskow and study spesial KGB arhives. The secret documents touch poles POW’s in 1939-40 was unsecreted across 50 yeas in 1989. I just told that no one of soviet or russan historic didn’t find any providens of execution poles. Personaly me assume that it can be NKVD, but without serious documents we just create problems for each other. Do you agree with me ?

#6

Hi Chevan,

Not true. Only part of the archives was declassified.
I know that there is some co-operation between individual Russian and Polish historians. There is no co-operation between Military Prosecutor of Russian Federation and Polish IPN.
Here you can look at some work of decent Russian historians.
(Just list of works, but even titles should tell you a lot.)

http://visz.nlr.ru/project/books/uk2003/15.html#pol

Cheers,

Lancer44

#7

OK , Lanser,
…according soviet, polish and german sourses. What’s sourses?

#8

First Gorbachev, than Yeltsin provided some documents from archives of CPSU. These were major proofs that Stalins order to liquidate was signed also by members of the Politburo.
Germans collected massive amount of documents digged up and found on corpses. They were personal identification papers, dog tags, wallets etc.
Their finding cut off naive soviet explanations that some Poles escaped towards chinese border.
Polish Army collected lists of officers which disappeared. After war Katyn Commitee - ilegal organisation - contacted nearly all living families which had fathers or brothers killed in Katyn forest. They tried to be objective and always asked about any letter or postcard older than April 1940, (Polish POWs were able to communicate with families), they could not find even single one.

Lancer44

#9

AFAIK Polish president asked Putin to release documents which may be connected to Katyn. It means that even Polish president doesn’t have evidence to blame USSR.
Lancer44 says that “killed by german weapons” is a joke, fine, i’ll call a joke evidence which points at USSR then. Everybody’s happy.

#10

Polish president asked Putin to release documents which would show the fate of Polish officers still unaccounted. Beside Katyn, Russian side helped to discover mass graves in Charkov and Miednoje.
It is still not clear where some persons were killed.
Many families of victims want also to see personal documents which are still present in NKVD archives.

NKVD used a lot of small calibre weapons imported from Germany. Ammunition 7,65 and 6,35mm used to kill victims in Katyn, (Fact confirmed by soviet Burdenko commision), was imported in large quantities from Germany by all Baltic countries, Poland and USSR.

Ii is very surprising for me, that someone can have any doubts or even question NKVD responsibility for Katyn massacre. Sort of bordering on insanity. (No offence - just my personal feeling - nothing personal)

I would like to remind you Sneaksie that latest excavations were conducted in areas never occupied by Germans. Findings are identical like in Katyn.
Same modus operandi, same method of killing.
Do you suggest that Poles killed themselves? Or maybe some American spies conducted dirty job?

#11

Baltic countries and Poland - yes, USSR - no. USSR had own standards for ammunition and produced plenty of small arms. If you think that USSR imported german small arms specially for executions - prove it.

Ii is very surprising for me, that someone can have any doubts or even question NKVD responsibility for Katyn massacre. Sort of bordering on insanity. (No offence - just my personal feeling - nothing personal)

Only pure faith doesn’t have doubts, science have plenty of them. Seems like you have faith in USSR responsibility for all crimes in the world, so you really don’t need any doubts.

I would like to remind you Sneaksie that latest excavations were conducted in areas never occupied by Germans. Findings are identical like in Katyn.

And what exactly are these areas, that never occupied by Germans?
Identical findings? Sceletons are almost identical, you know.

Do you suggest that Poles killed themselves? Or maybe some American spies conducted dirty job?

I suggest poles were executed in 42. BTW, state of corpses decaying in 44 clearly showed that these men were shot no earlier than 42.

#12

Yes i read early about the state of poles corpses in 1943 .I see photos and read comclusion of medical men.
Soft tissues remained good, despite warm climate. The period of bury was about 1- 1,5 years.

#13

This discussion is pointless. It is impossible to discuss anything when you, Russians are convinced that Germans are responsible. Nonsense.
Out of thousands Poles in German captivity only 2.5% died - percentage within normal attrition.
Russians did not even manage to convince Nuremberg Tribunal abot German guilt.

#14

Well then, scary NKVD agents infiltrated Katyn region in 42, stealed weapons from local SS regiment, executed several thousands of polish prisoners in forest and disappeared back through the frontline. All is clear, isn’t it? Russian’s guilt is undeniable…

#15

Слушай, не стоит неверное обижать Lancer44, он нормальный парень( ему кстати 50 лет). А его русофобия имеет личные причины; его отец в 39-ом попал в советский плен и еле выжил, пока Сталин не отправил остатки армии Андерса в Иран в 42 к англичанам.
Кстати, насчет Катыни, ты Мухина читал “Катынский детектив”? Если читал, то что думаешь?

Lancer, do you read russian without problems? Or is it hard for you.

#16

У меня не было цели его обижать. Личные причины понятны, но хотя у большинства россиян во время войны были убиты немцами родственники (у меня прадедушка погиб например, тетя умерла от голода), они не страдают германофобией. А у поляков русофобия. Почему?
“Катынский детектив” не читал.

#17

Off-topic for the non-Russian users: useful tool for translation from Russian to English:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

#18

Hi Chevan,

I can read Russian without any problems. Sometimes I have to grab dictionary because my Russian become a bit rusty. Just lack of exercise.
During my 22 years in Oz, I had one Russian and one Ukrainian friend. We are still friends, they are a bit different than you. Russian understand Katyn and with Ukrainian, we can even talk about UPA…
I don’t suffer from russofobia, to the contrary, I very much like and understand Russian culture, literature, music…

For me it is difficult to understand that intelligent, educated Russian people like you and Sneaksie stick to sort of a tribal morality.
Example: When you talk about Ribbentrop- Molotov Pact, you treat it as pragmatic policy of Stalin and USSR.
When I put in a imaginary topic of Poland going together with Hitler against USSR, you treated it nearly as crime and my “polish, patriotic, nationalistic idiocy.”

True. It was idiocy. But why you treat everything in this way?

  • What is bad? - If someone steal cow from our pasture it is very bad!
    Fine.
  • What is good? - When we steal cow from someones pasture it is very , very good.

Hmm, what you said about my father, “…on popal w sovietskij plen and ele vyzil poka Stalin nie otpravil ostatki armii Andersa w Iran k angliczanam.”

True. But my father just told me about good Russian people he met.
I never forget when he told me how he managed to steal piece of bread from Russian women in Tashkent, on the market. He expected that she will start yelling, but nothing happened. Looking at the back he saw that she just made a cross sign with her hand.

Cheers,

Lancer44

#19

About your Ukrainian friend… i wouldn’t talk about UPA myself, though my grandparents lived in Ukraine before the war. If you enjoy talking about ‘army’ formed from pre-war terrorists who murdered everyone opposing them they could kill, from soviet authorities to innocent farmers and school teachers, ‘army’ which served Germany as punitive terror regiments (‘policai’), ‘army’, parts of which took place in slaughtering poles during Warsaw uprising… you are truly ‘open-minded’.

When I put in a imaginary topic of Poland going together with Hitler against USSR, you treated it nearly as crime and my “polish, patriotic, nationalistic idiocy.”

Where is this quote from?

#20

Это начиналось здесь , смотри

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3538&page=2