What do you think it would happen? hitler approve to use jets to fight against the allies in year 1942
Sure the plane enjoys a higher speed than all allies fighter, but the jet engine would only last for a dozen hours before it requried to be replaced, thus wasting a lot of war resources on repairing the aircraft. Not to mention the casualities due to accident might higher than the death from combat
How much earlier are we talking about here?
o how about year 1942?
1942 is rather too early to have any effect. The German jet technology of the time was simply too immature to carry out safe combat operations. Personally, I don’t think that even had Hitler given the go-ahead for full scale production/development immediately any substantial number of German jets could have been fielded before 1944. By this time - even without the stimulus of operational German jets - the RAF had Meteors in squadron service. Thus, the German decision to emphasise jets would most likely have led to the Me-262s facing RAF Meteor jets in the world’s first jet dogfights in 1944. My personal opinion is that the RAF would have come off better - the Meteors were far more heavily optimised as fighters than the Me-262s were.
K if this “what if” stuff is going to gain in popularity please label it as you have this one. That why if it becomes extremely popular we can easily move it to a certain forum. My worry is that some ppl might not catch the what if and think silly crap. Example … we think the germans captured Moscow.
The real problem with the Me-262 was the engines wich were not available in grat numbers until 1944, there is a beautiful article in spanish …i see if I can translate this.
i hope this is not wrong, but i remember a ww2 veteran pilot testing the Me-262
he immediately ordered the air force to concentrate their resources on the jets and FW-190 planes
so maybe if the air force could have concentrate their resources on the jets sooner, some veterans pilot might have some chances to pilot this plane and take down more bombers
262s couldn’t have come out sooner than late 1943- a year earlier. They would have atken a toll of enemy bombers but the Allies certainly would have been victorious though it would have lengthened the war and cost more lives on all sides. 
All it would have taken were to capture one me262 and reverse engineer it or find its weaknesses and then counter it. Just look at the Jap zero.
I wonder how the 262 would have faired against the Meteor?
The offical evaluation of the Meteor was that it was superior to the Tempest V in everything except a small number of areas (heavy ailerons IIRC, and possibly also range). The Me-262 had a critical flaw with it’s cannon for fighter use - they had a very low rate of fire (45 RPM?) and a very low muzzle velocity. That makes hitting asmall, manouvering target a nightmare (although it doesn’t give you problems with bombers, and the large shell comes in handy there).
The Meteor was fitted with the by then standard Hispano cannon. That was very close to the ideal WW2 fighter .vs. fighter weapon. Add in the fact that the Meteor was designed by people who actually knew what they were doing, as opposed to the German designers who were like kids in a sweetshop when they got a new idea at times and it really is no contest in my mind. Meteor by a mile.
i dont know if this would work, but Me262 dont need to be in a huge number, it can be 3-4 planes in the squard (perhaps following the FW-190, or Bf-109) to intercept the bombers while the other propellor fighter do their job against allies fighter
They tried it for real. It didn’t work very well - for one thing the speed disparity is such that the jets are very badly handicapped by having to stay with their own fighters until quite late in the attack.
It would have been interesting to see the Lockheed P-80 take on the Me262. A couple P-80’S made it to Italy before the close of the war but didn’t see combat. The P-80 had a top speed of 558 mph (slightly faster than the Me262’s 540 mph). The P-80’s service ceiling was 45,000 feet (the Me262 had service ceiling of 37,565 feet). The P-80 was armed with six .50 caliber (12.7mm) machine guns in nose (Me262 had four 30mm Mk 108 cannon in nose). On November 10, 1950, Lieutenant Russell Brown, flying a Shooting Star, made history when he destroyed a Russian MiG-15 fighter in the world’s first decisive all-jet combat.
Some informations follows that I picked up on a quick google search.
Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star
http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html
Few airplanes in the history of aeronautics have been as successful as the Lockheed Shooting Star. It was the first operational jet fighter in the United States when it went into service in 1945. It emerged as victor in the world’s first all-jet combat, and it won the distinction of remaining in production for a full 15 years after the experimental model was first flown.
The Army Air Force planned to build the Shooting Star in large numbers. However, only two of the machines arrived in Italy before the end of the war in Europe, and these were never used in operations. Despite the cessation of hostilities, production was continued on a reduced scale.
When war started in Korea, F-80’s were sent to the battle area to help the South Koreans. On November 10, 1950, Lieutenant Russell Brown, flying a Shooting Star, made history when he destroyed a Russian MiG-15 fighter in the world’s first decisive all-jet combat.
P-80 Shooting Star
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p80shootingstar.html
The P-80 was the first American built jet aircraft that was produced in large quantities and was the first USAF aircraft to exceed 500 mph in level flight. Designed during WWII but arriving too late to see combat, the P-80 eventually saw combat in the Korean conflict. Redesignated F-80 in 1948, the F-80C saw extensive use in the low-level strike fighter role utilizing rockets, bombs and napalm. On Nov. 8, 1950 the F-80 reasserted its interceptor roots and a Shooting Star flown by Lt. Russell J. Brown of the 16th FIS successfully engaged in the worlds first jet on jet combat, downing a Russian-built Mig-15.
Jet and Rocket Aircraft WWII
http://www.ww2guide.com/jetrock.shtml
P-80 Shooting Star
Developed in only 143 days, the prototype Lockheed XP-80 Shooting Star, Lulu Belle, makes its first flight on January 8, 1944 at Muroc Dry Lake (later Edwards AFB), Calif., with Milo Burcham at the controls. It is the first American fighter to exceed 500 mph in level flight. If the war had continued the Shooting Star most likely would has seen combat.
LOCKHEED F-80 “Shooting Star”
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/f-80.htm
The Shooting Star was the first USAF aircraft to exceed 500 mph in level flight, the first American jet airplane to be manufactured in large quantities, and the first USAF jet to be used in combat. Designed in 1943, the XP-80 made its maiden flight on January 8, 1944. Several early P-80s were sent to Europe for demonstration, but World War II ended before the aircraft could be employed in combat. The aircraft was redesignated in 1948 when “P” for “Pursuit” was changed to “F” for “Fighter.” Of 1,731 F-80s built, 798 were F-80Cs.
Although designated a high-altitude interceptor, the F-80C was used extensively as a fighter-bomber in the Korean Conflict, primarily for low-level rocket, bomb and napalm attacks against ground targets. With the beginning of hostilities in June 1950, Warner Robins Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC) modernized F-80s assigned to federalized Air National Guard units in a crash program called “Project Hold-Off.” On November 8, 1950, an F-80C flown by Lt. Russell J. Brown, flying with the 16th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, shot down a Russian-built MIG-15 in the world’s first all-jet fighter air battle.
Lockheed F-80 “Shooting Star”
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f80.htm
Specs and photo gallery
F-80 “Shooting Star”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-80.htm
The Shooting Star was the first USAF aircraft to exceed 500 mph in level flight, the first American jet airplane to be manufactured in large quantities, and the first USAF jet to be used in combat. Designed in 1943, the XP-80 made its maiden flight on January 8, 1944. Several early P-80s were sent to Europe for demonstration, but World War II ended before the aircraft could be employed in combat. The aircraft was redesignated in 1948 when “P” for “Pursuit” was changed to “F” for “Fighter.” Of 1,731 F-80s built, 798 were F-80Cs.
Although designated a high-altitude interceptor, the F-80C was used extensively as a fighter-bomber in the Korean Conflict, primarily for low-level rocket, bomb and napalm attacks against ground targets. With the beginning of hostilities in June 1950, Warner Robins Air Logistics Center (WR-ALC) modernized F-80s assigned to federalized Air National Guard units in a crash program called “Project Hold-Off.” On November 8, 1960, an F-80C flown by Lt. Russell J. Brown, flying with the 16th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, shot down a Russian-built MIG-15 in the world’s first all-jet fighter air battle.
“Frantic” best describes the pace of some aircraft development programs during World War II. Surely falling into this category was the Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star program. By the summer of 1943, the poor performance of the Bell Airacomet spelled the need for the development of a new U.S. jet fighter. Lockheed had been making design studies of such an aircraft and in June 1943 was awarded a prototype development contract with the stipulation that the aircraft be ready for flight in 180 days. Completion of the aircraft actually required only 150 days, but first flight was delayed by engine problems until January 1944. The intitial contract was for one plane, at a cost of $515,000. Production of the F-80A, using a different engine (the J-33) began in 1945.
Conventional in basic configuration, the F-80 featured an unswept wing of 13-percent thickness mounted in the low position and, unlike the twin-engine Meteor and the Me 262, had a single engine located in the fuselage behind the pilot. Air was delivered to the engine by side inlets located on the fuselage just ahead of the wing root, and the jet exhaust nozzle was at the extreme end of the fuselage. Adjacent to the fuselage side may be seen the bleed slots that removed the fuselage boundary layer from the engine intake air and thus prevented flow separation inside the inlet. No such slots were provided on the prototype, and intermittent separation did occur in the inlets. “Duct rumble” was the term used to describe this phenomenon because of the alarming noise heard by the pilot. Evident in the photograph is the deployed speed brake located on the bottom of the fuselage. Like the P-38 , the F-80 had a small dive-recovery flap near the leading edge of the lower surface of the wing. Again like later versions of the P-38, the F-80 had power-operated ailerons. The other controls were manually operated. Split trailing-edge flaps provided lift augmentation at low speeds.
The cockpit of production models of the Shooting Star was pressurized and air-conditioned. In the prototype, no air-conditioning was provided so that the temperature resulting from a combination of the high temperatures of the California desert and sustained high Mach number flight at low altitude caused the interior surfaces of the cockpit and controls to become uncomfortably hot. For example, with an ambient temperature of 90° some parts of the aircraft would reach a temperature of 150 in prolonged flight at a Mach number of 0.73. Another advance in cockpit equipment was the ejection seat incorporated in the F-80C model of the Shooting Star. (The first successful manned test of an ejection seat took place in July 1946.)
Although the F-80 was conventional in appearance, the aircraft was the result of a careful synthesis of weight, size, and thrust parameters, as well as close attention to aerodynamic refinement. As a consequence, it had performance far superior to that of the P-59A although the thrust-to-weight ratio of the earlier aircraft was actually about 12 percent greater than that of the F-80A. For example, the maximum sea-level speed of 558 miles per hour was 145 miles per hour greater than that of the maximum speed of the P-59A, which occurred at 30 000 feet. As seen in table V, the climbing performance of the F-80A was also far superior to that of the earlier aircraft; the much smaller wing and resultant drag area of the F-80A no doubt played a significant role in ensuring the higher performance of the Shooting Star. In comparison with the drag area of the famous World War II Mustang, the drag area of 3.2 square feet of the F-80A was about 15 percent lower than that of the earlier propeller-driven aircraft.
The F-80 came too late for operational service in World War II, but the F-80C did see action in the Korean conflict of the early 1950’s. Designed as an air-superiority fighter, the F-80 could not compete in that role with the Soviet-built MiG-15 supplied to the opposing forces by the Soviet Union. It was, however, extensively employed in the ground-attack mode. Armament consisted of six .50-caliber machine guns in the nose and externally mounted bombs and rockets.
The F-80 was withdrawn from first-title United States Air Force (USAF) service in 1954; production of the aircraft consisted of about 1700 units. But, this is not quite the end Of the F-80 story. A two-seat trainer version of the aircraft appeared in 19-18. Known in the USAF as the T-33 and in the Navy as the T2V, over 5000 of these trainers were built; a number of them are still in service and can be seen frequently at air bases in different parts of the country. Certainly a long and useful life for an airplane developed in the closing years of World War II.
F-80A “Shooting Star”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-80a.htm
The AAF definitively endorsed the P-80 on 4 April (2 months ahead of the XP-80A’s first flight) with a LC that introduced the first production contract. This contract, as approved in December, called for two lots of P-80s (500 in each). Delivery of the first 500 was to be completed by the end of 1945; the rest, by February 1946. Germany’s growing use of jet fighters (and the North American P-51’s inability to measure up) underlined the P-80’s urgency. In January 1945, the P-80 production got the same high priority as the B-29. This came after concluding that a slowdown of P-38 production would not solve the manpower, space, and part shortages preventing Lockheed from speeding up the P-80 production. Each of the first 500 P-80s would cost $75,913; the later ones, $20,000 less per aircraft. A second production contract in June 1945 raised the P-80 procurement above 3,600-most of them subsequently cancelled. An additional 1,000 P-80s were to be built by North American and labeled P-80Ns to distinguish them from the Lockheed productions. They too were cancelled.
Despite major problems, the AAF received its first P-80A on schedule. The P-80 actually attained quantity production in March (only 21 months from its design), even though precision tools were lacking and the engines were either in short supply or unacceptable.
Accelerated service tests showed that with proper maintenance the P-80A was safe for flight. Many mechanical “bugs” were found, however. An engineering inspection of the 126th P-80A in mid-November (delayed for months because the first planes were practically handmade and hardly typical of later ones) also disclosed a number of deficiencies.
The close of WW II brought a sharp curtailment of the P-80 procurement. The second production contract (June 1945) was completely cancelled on 5 September; the first went through several changes before settling for a total of 917 airplanes, against the 1,000 originally contracted for. Moreover, the P-80’s cost climbed some $19,000 per unit, due to reduced procurement, readjusted delivery schedules, and more particularly, required configuration changes. Nevertheless, postwar procurement through fiscal year 1950 raised the entire program to 1,731 P-80s (by then redesignated F-80s) of one model or another. This Air Force Logistics Command (AFLC) figure included all experimental and prototype planes, some 60 P-80s bought for the Air National Guard (ANG), and 128 F-80Cs converted to TF-80Cs (also referred to as T-33s). Lockheed reported F-80 production to be below 1,700. Headquarters AAF/USAF showed 1,562 F-80s bought for the active forces. All three sets of figures were correct, being based on different accounting methods.
Months after many of the P-80s had been accepted, the aircraft were assigned to the 412th Fighter Group. After testing the aircraft, this unit had reported in mid-1945 that the P-80 “was the only fighter airplane with sufficient speed to escort proposed jetpropelled bombers.” The 412th also thought the P-80 well-suited for other tactical roles–counter air and ground support. In the spring of 1946 the AAF had 301 P-80s, hardly any of them overseas. The main reason was the same shortage of parts and engines that had kept the P-80 out of WW II. All P-8OAs using J33-9 engines had been grounded in 1945, while a General Motors strike the following year further complicated the engine situation. Furthermore, the P-80 had the highest accident rate in the AAF (More than twice that of any other fighter, excluding the P-59 which was seldom flown.)-36 crashes alone between March and September 1946. Here, low pilot experience played a part.
Beginning with the 346th production, Lockheed put the Allison J33-17 engine in the P-80A. The GE J33-11 and Allison J33-9 engines, used interchangeably by earlier P-80As, would be reconfigured along the lines of the new J33-17. There was no money for Allison to do the work. It would be handled over several years during regular depot engine overhauls.
The AAF paid Lockheed $8.5 million to give the P-8OAs some features of the next model (P-80B). This took roughly 1 year. By March 1948, all P-80As in service had received under-wing rocket launchers, and all but a few got an engine water-alcohol injection system to ease takeoff. To cure canopy problems at high speed, Lockheed installed newly-developed canopy remover kits on many of the P-80As as part of the $8.5 million modernization deal. Oversea units did their own canopy work. The same fund shortages that kept Allison from improving the engines of the early P80As slowed other postproduction modifications. Faulty aileron boost pumps (the cause of several accidents) and hydraulic pressure losses still existed. These, like upgrading the original engines, would eventually be corrected during regular depot overhauls.
Production terminated with delivery of 12 last aircraft in December 1946. 525 p-80s were accepted; AAF accepted 33 P-80As in FY 45, 311 in FY 46, and 181 in FY 47. Cost per aircraft was approximately $95,000, Average cost of the various P-80s ordered under the first production contract of December 1944. If included, research and development costs boosted the aircraft’s average price to over $110,000.
EARLY JET AIRCRAFT MECHANIC
By Richard W. Kamm
http://www.enginehistory.org/stories_&_essays_3.htm
Extensive Article
P-80 and P-47 photo
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Brink/2267.htm
Remarks by Jim Brink: "Taken January 1950 near Garmisch, Germany. Two P-80’s of the 36th Fighter Group, Furstenfeldbruck, and two P47’s of the 86th Fighter Group Munich Rheim, Germany. Taken as a publicity picture for the upcoming World Wide Gunnery Meet to be held at Nellis, AFB, Nevada.
P-80 #42 Pilot Jim Brink, Captain of the 36th FG Gunnery Team
P-80 #50 Ben Fithian.
P-47 #985 Schueler, Captain of the 86th FG Gunnery Team
P-47 #457 Gaddis
A few months after this photo was taken, Lt. Phil Fryberger was flying my #42 when he was run into in a mid air collision by Maj. Willis flying another P-80. Phil bailed out of #42 and was uninjured on landing and Willis went back to flying the base Gooney Bird (C-47)."
P-80-01
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/3190.htm
Some nice stuff there George and PDF, If the Nazis had introduced the ME262 earlier I only think it would have spurred the Allies to speed up the introduction of their Jets.
Of course the thing to remember here is that while the British staffed their Squadrons of Jets with the normal compliment of aircrew, the Germans had to result to staffing their Squadrons with Generals and other high ranking officers that should not have been flying anything by that stage in their careers. A waste of good talent in my opinion.
I’m not so sure about that. Galand is a good example - he was a superb fighter pilot and by all accounts a very good squadron leader. However, everything I’ve read suggests to me that is leadership as General der Jagdflieger (?sp) was not far short of a disaster. He failed to successfully play the political game and get the production priorities he needed so badly - witness the misuse of the Me-262 as a bomber and the fact that until Speer changed the production priorities on his own far more resources were put into building bombers than into fighters. He never really came up with any solution to the American daylight raids either - his preferred plan of “the big blow” was ultimately just a rehashing of Leigh-Mallory’s “Big Wing” idea, but on an even larger and less practical scale. In the end the fighters and aircrew he had stockpiled for it were lost in the raids supporting the Ardennes offensive on the 1st January 1945. Given the comparative levels of training, experience and equipment of the German fighters compared to the US escort fighters, there is every reason to suppose that this plan would have turned into a turkey shoot for the American escort fighters.
Incidentally, by the time at the end of the war when the Germans really were putting high ranking officers into Jet cockpits (i.e. Galland and JV44) it is questionable whether there was any better use for them. There really wasn’t a great deal to command at a high level by this stage, and the Nazis were really only interested in yes-men.
Good points all PDF and upon reflection the whole system was flawed, I still think the Germans wasted their talent by keeping too many skilled pilots in active service until they died or were captured though. But, as you say, at the end it was probably the only use left for them as there was no one else skilled enough.
He agree with twitch 1,
the same said a american general: “If they had more Me262 the air war would be harder and longer but the result would be the same.” Maybe than the first atomic bomb was dropped on hamburg. Or the british had used their anthrax over the Ruhrgebiet.
These discussions are a littlebit pointless if you not put in the other factors.
Greeting Stahler
I think that Germans could release Me262 earlier. They decided to rectify a few problems and finally had it too late.
They claimed 750 kills by Me262 - a year earlier would make a huge difference.
The end result was that Me262 was used even after the war without any problems in Czech, Israeli and Jugoslav Airforces, than influenced creation of Sabre - not much consolation for Luftwaffe.
War could be prolonged by 4 to 6 month.
Lancer44
Hi Lancer,
the 262 wheree scheduled to arrive in 1943. But the “Gröfaz” decided to make a blitzbomber from her. She was designed as an bomber intercepter not as an FB.
The meteor was designed as a groundsupport plane. And if these planes had ever mett, it was the pilot who had made difference.
The invasion fleet had not be stopped with the 262, i think she was not able to be used as an air superiority fighter. The red army could also not be stopped.
So the result where as you said more time and more lives.
Greetings Stahler