What was the reason for Deporting Poles and other ethnic groups from Eastern Poland?

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#1

This is a continuation of my original thread -
“Justification for Deportation Poles and other ethnic groups from Eastern Poland?”.

Just wanted to keep the replies to this question separate, so I started a new thread.

Numbers deported vary from ½ million to 1.7 million

Just to recap -
Poles and Polish citizens were loaded into cattle trucks and transported to places such as Siberia, Kazakhstan and placed in work camps.

Deported were men women and children, including the old and the very young.

Many hundreds of thousands died in the camps, from cold and hunger. Many died before reaching the camps.

To eat people had to work. If they did not work they were not fed.
If someone became ill and could not work then they were not fed, so generally died.

Marek

#2

On the 67th anniversary of the 1st wave of ‘deportations’
from Poland 10th February 1940,
here are a few links to some personal stories about the deportations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bradford/big_questions/poland_deportations_to_ussr_1940.shtml

http://www.kresy.co.uk/memories.html

There is now a tradition in Poland to light a candle and put in the window as a symbol of remembrance for the those who are buried throughout the former USSR, many in unmarked graves.

Marek

#3

Well Marek the “official” reason for deportation of some groups of poles was the its possible fight agains USSR in the inevitable German-Soviet war.
Those groups of poles which called “osadniki” - the peoples who fight agains Red Army in 1919-20. Those people defended the Poland from the stupidest bolshevick invasion ( which idiot Trockij-Bernstain sended to help the Germany “make the proletrian revolution” via the Poland). Osadniki had protected its motheland Poland from the invasion.
After the sep 1939 in the Western Belorusia and Ukrain ( former lands under polish in 1919-1939) the first problem of NKVD was the who could be the collaborationists with Germans i.e. could fight against Red Army. The poles who fight against Red Army in 1919-20 were the first in the list of possible enemy.
According bolshevic tradition they were deported together with its families.
I found the interesting article of russian author who studied the Polish deportation in 1940-1945. He wrote about one villige near the siberian city Taijshet.
http://www.stengazeta.net/article.html?article=1208#
It were bild the special estates for the poles.

The polish school children in the Tolun of Irkitsk area 1945. This was a special school for the polish children.
The condition in Siberia was very bad of couse but it’s wrong to say that the poles had mass death from the cold and hunger. They had a simylr conditions like and russian native peoples who living in the Syberia.
That’s wrote pan Antony Piskado which family were repressed in 1940

"… me, father, mother, sister even two brothers - as you know, are deported and conducted in Irkutsk region 6 years (1940-1946); another Piskadly - the part of the family of cousins were deported 13/14 April of 1940 (second wave of mass deportation) into Kazakhstan from g.Drogobycha (today in Ternopol’ region of the Ukraine); one these their cousins, by Victor Piskadlo (1907-1940) was shot in Katyne; its brother Jozef (Joseph) 1909-1944) was killed by the germans during July of 1944 in the camp Koldychevo under Baranovichami (Belorus’); my aunt - Wanda Yanush- was burnt in the Hitler camp Auschwitz (Aushvits); my cousin sister Valentina Jaros was in 1944 killed (by series from the machine gun) by the Russian liberators

He just forgot to add something…
He is the jew
This is the irony of fate but if he was not deported to the Syberia he and all his relatives were killed by Germans in Poland.

Sure the deportation of poles war the mistake of USSR gov, but i have not to say it look like mass killing of the poles by the cold and hunger. In fact in the occuped Poland by Germany perished about 3 million native poles + a lot of jews.
And i repeat the deported poles had not of worst conditions than the native russians in Syberia.They weren’t prisoners of camps.

Cheers.

#4

Hi 1PUK,

I agree in general with the explanation Chevan gave. I just think it was more general then just possible future conflict with Germany. The replacement of the Polish settlers (osadnicy) and their families had the goal opposite to the Polish colonisation policies of 1920th. Obviously the people who previously fought against Red Army were considered unreliable to the new Soviet government. One of the ways to solve it is to move people to the area where they would not be able to counteract the new regime.

I guess, there was also element of revenge for the military and political defeat in war of 1920.

The legislation used for deporting the people was as follows:[INDENT][INDENT]
[ul]
[li]The first (app. before 29-Dec-1939) people were deported according to the directive from 17 July 1937 as “unloyal elements living in the forbidden (border) zones”.
[/li]
[li]29 December 1939 - "Regulation regarding special settlements and working order for “osadniki"s, expelled from the Western regions of Ukraine and White Russia.”
[/li]
[li]2 March 1940 - Regulation regarding expulsion of the osadniki’s family members.
[/li]
[li]May 1940 - Beria (the minister of internal affairs) signs order for the deportation of the expelled population for 20 years to different regions in the east of USSR.
[/li]
[/ul][/INDENT][/INDENT]

I will try to get the text of these directives and post here, if possible.

By the way, Stalin liked to use deportation as a tool. There were millions of people moved during his rule for different reasons real or imaginary.

In case it makes any difference for this matter, I strongly sympathize to them who had to suffer.

#5

Old women, old men, young children, babies?

I think you will find they were labour camps.
In some cases they had to build them first.

As I said in the first post in this thread:-
If people could not work through illness then they were not fed. What is that?

Marek

P.S.
Just to add – I’ve read where some Russians helped Poles – God bless them for that.

#6

Old women, old men, young children, babies?

Marek

P.S.
Just to add – I’ve read where some Russians helped Poles – God bless them for that.

#7

Hi Marek,

Why are you asking me this question, I was not the one making this barbaric desission. Of course the women, elderly and children could not resist actively the new regime. But Stalin liked to solve problems with one blow. Move all the people and that is it.

I can just repeat what I said before, IMHO, the goal was to depolonise the areas that were colonised by Polish goverment in 1920 - 1930th. Think of the Polish colonisation of those territories with the opposite sign.

Regarding deportation of the family members I would like to give an example of another deported nation - Krim Tartars. They were deported 08-May-1944 to Uzbekistan. The reason was collaboration with occupying German forces.
You will be surprised that many of the deported people concidered the desision regarding deportation of the family members to be “wise” and even “happy”.

This is because the isolation of the males from families eventualy would hinder the reproduction of the nation. So objectively it put the nation into less truble than deporting only male population. So after 7 year Tartars almost had the same birth rate compare to the rest of USSR.

Here is the source in russian (if you can not read it I could try to translate it ).
Autor: Vadim Koginov. Title: “Russia. XX century.”

[INDENT]Повторю еще раз, что я долго считал своего рода дикостью и беспределом переселение народов в целом. Но сравнительно недавно я обсуждал эту тему с выдающимся современным политологом и публицистом С. Г. Кара-Мурзой, и неожиданно он решительно возразил мне. Сергей Георгиевич с юных лет знал от своих крымских родственников, что переселение в 1944 году татарского народа в целом воспринималось многими в самом народе как “мудрое” и даже “счастливое” решение (позднейшее отношение крымских татар к акции 1944 года - дело другое). Ибо очень значительная часть мужчин действительно так или иначе сотрудничала с врагом. По немецким сведениям от 14 января 1945 года, в вооруженных силах врага еще служили тогда 10 тысяч крымских татар 48), - то есть весьма и весьма значительная доля; ведь крымских татар к 1941 году насчитывалось немногим более 200 тысяч человек и, следовательно, имелось не более 50 тысяч мужчин призывных возрастов. И, значит, каждый пятый из таких мужчин в январе 1945-го находился во вражеской армии!

Едва ли уместно отрицать, что этот факт характеризует “ориентацию” народа в целом. И по постановлению от 11 мая 1944 года, находившиеся в Крыму мужчины вместе с женщинами и детьми были без какого-либо “расследования” переселены (в основном, в Узбекистан).

В уже упомянутой беседе С. Г. Кара-Мурза сообщил, что в среде крымских татар тогда имело место осознание переселения народа в целом как “меньшей” беды, ибо при какой-либо “изоляции” от него молодых и зрелых мужчин прекратился бы прирост народа, то есть фактически наступил бы конец его естественного бытия… А у переселенного крымско-татарского народа к 1951 году уже родилось 18830 детей, - то есть 10 процентов от общей численности переселенцев49). Чтобы оценить эту цифру, следует знать, что к 1951 году в СССР было 20,9 млн детей моложе пяти лет, то есть 12 процентов от населения страны начала 1946 года, - не намного больше, чем у переселенных крымских татар…

Есть основания полагать, что переселение народов в целом объяснялось не чьей-либо “мудростью” (как думали в 1944-м те или иные крымские татары), а стремлением одним махом “решить проблему” (не забудем, что продолжалась тяжелейшая война ). Но, так сказать, объективно сие решение, утвержденное лично Сталиным, было не самым губительным…[/INDENT]

#8

Just don’t misunderstand me Marek.
I don’t justify the desicion to deport the whole nation or a group of peoples. This is like to justify the slaveholding in the Roman empire. Today the moral and culture has changed. The way of decision the problem in world where 50-60 years ago today could look as quite amoral.
But 50… years ago it was normal to drop the a-bomb to the city for the political purpoces,
40 years ago it was a normal the races discrimination in society,
only 30 years ago it was absolutly normal to lead the Colonial war for resources and markets. Ans killed the loot of native peoples.
So i as it was mentioned by Egorka the deportation was in “spirit of time” This was a common Stalin policy not only for the poles but and any other “unfavourable” nation - Chechens, Ingushs, Tatars…
But i absolutly agree with Egorka -IT WASN"T WORST SOLUTION.Those peoples weren’t sended to the GULAG or killed by NKVD ( Althouth many of native russia were).
I don’t protect the Stalin (History has alredy convicted him for its crimes enought) but don’t think its right to blame him in all world evil ( real or virtual).
BTW i showed you the photo of polish children in Syberia , you can find the photo of children in Osvencim ( who avoided the soviet deportation) in feb 1945 and compare … just compare.

I think you will find they were labour camps.
In some cases they had to build them first.

Well yes some of villages were build by settlers, but it defenitelly weren’t a labor camps. There were no the barbed wire or the guard with mashinguns.
In fact together with poles ( often right in neighbourg houses) lived the russian settlers ( so called “KULAKI”) who were repressed since beginning of collectivisation in 1932-33.

As I said in the first post in this thread:-
If people could not work through illness then they were not fed. What is that?

The material that i have found don’t tell about mass died from illness or starvations. CErtainly the death rate was a high espesially after the 1941 when the Soviet -German war has begin - the settler were forced to work ( it was a spesial directive of gov) in the timber cutting and ets.

P.S.
Just to add – I’ve read where some Russians helped Poles – God bless them for that.

Well i have to say that the simple russian never feels the anti-polish senses or hate to them. Its strange but inspite of official enmity of our governments ( even the war between us) i never heared the anti-polish words in former soviet peoples.
Personaly me is sorry for the Soviet -Polish events in 1939-45. I have never justify the force actions against any slav peoples (like and other peoples).
Deroptations or repressing of poles in Soviet period were also the worst.

Cheers.

#9

Thank you for the link Chevan.
It’s very interesting article, and significant, and I wish to add some detailes for those who can’t read it in Russian: It contains fragments of the study on deportation of the Poles to the Taishet region, written by a Russian schoolgirl from Taishet. She had letters from Poland from people who had lived in Taishet as children. The study has won the 3rd place in an all-russian historical contest for schoolchildren.

Chevan, you are right that there was no goal to exterminate deported Poles. They had to work and survive in Siberia and Kazakhstan, almost like natives. But unlike natives, they had no expirience of life in such climate and such conditions. They often hadn’t enough clothes, and they were settled in bad houses. Local authorities didn’t especially cared about their fate. It’s understandable that for deported Poles, this life was true hell, especially for women with children, whose men were arrested and set to GULAG camps or shot. I don’t have exact figures, but death rate among Poles had to be much higher than among natives of Siberia.

#10

More stories of deportations of Poles:-

Replies on this thread deny labour camps.

Another link that mentions labour camps.

http://www.polishheritage.co.nz/PAHIATUA/SKWARKO/S1/S01T.HTM

Marek

#11

Marek, nobody denied there were labor camps in USSR and thousands of Polish men were charged with “contr-revolution activity” and sent to GULAG. As to families deported to Siberia, they had other status - “special settlers”, and their rights were limited in comparison with USSR citizens (althougs these citizens hadn’t many rights as well), and they had to work, but they weren’t prisoners of GULAG.

#12

Hello!

Here is the excerpts from the article “Polish forced migrants in USSR in 1940 - 1941” by A.Gurianov ( А.Э.Гурьянов (НИПЦ «Мемориал»)“ПОЛЬСКИЕ СПЕЦПЕРЕСЕЛЕНЦЫ В СССР в 1940–1941 гг.” http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/G_1.htm ).
The work is based on huge amount of autentic documents.
I highly recomend to read it to our russian speaking members.

See below the text in Russian and my rough translation.

[INDENT]

В 1940 г. были проведены три операции по массовому выселению, начатые 10 февраля, 13 апреля и 29 июня. В мае и июне 1941 г. на разных территориях последовательно была проведена четвертая операция. Само выселение каждый раз осуществлялось за один день. Погрузка выселяемых в железнодорожные вагоны и отправка эшелонов занимала больше времени. Как правило, в пути эшелоны находились около 2–4 недель, а затем часто следовал еще и многодневный переезд на гужевом, водном или автотранспорте к местам расселения.

[INDENT]There were 3 operations for mass deportation in 1940: 10 February, 13 April, 29 June.The 4th operation took place in May - June 1941. The expultion from home addresses and gathering of people were conducted within 1 day every time. Boarding the trains and their departure took more time. Normally the trains had been on the way between 2 and 4 weeks. often followed by many days in other kind of local transportation: horses, boats, trucks.

По архивным материалам конвойных войск нами составлен перечень 208 железнодорожных эшелонов, которыми в 1940 г. депортированные из западных областей БССР и УССР вывозились в глубь СССР. Суммарное число таких эшелонов согласно документам конвойных войск составляло 211, однако о трех из них никаких данных не обнаружено. Пофамильные эшелонные списки не найдены, однако, благодаря установленным данным о численности практически каждого эшелона, удалось оценить число польских граждан, депортированных в 1940 г.: в рамках февральской операции — 139–141 тысяча, в апреле — 61 тысяча и в июне-июле — 75 тысяч.

According to archives of the convoy forces, we assembled the list of 208 echelons which in 1940 carried the deported from the areas of West Ukrain and Belorussia into USSR. The total number of these echelons according to the convoy documents was 211. But the information about 3 of the could not be located by us. The name lists were absent, but the number of the people on each echelon was available for almost all of them. This way it was possible to estimate the number of Poles deported in 1940: in February 139.000 - 141.000; in April 61.000; in June - july 75.000 .

The total number of deported was up to 325.000 people.

Анализ данных ОТП–ОТСП и конвойных войск свидетельствует о том, что численность выселенных в промежутках между четырьмя основными операциями относительно невелика — не более 2% от общего числа депортированных.

The analysis of the transpot documents and convoy forces shows that the numebr of deported between the 4 main deporting operations was relatively low - not higher than 2% of the total number of deported people.

Для нескольких эшелонов с депортированными удалось найти в архивных документах сведения о смертности в пути. Судя по этим сведениям, уровень смертности оказался существенно ниже, чем можно было ожидать, основываясь на свидельствах некоторых переселенцев (см., например29), сообщавших о нескольких трупах, ежедневно выбрасываемых из эшелона в течение всего пути. Согласно одному из архивных документов, в начале марта 1940 г. из западных областей БССР в Тайшет Иркутской области (а это один из самых длинных маршрутов, к тому же первая депортация осуществлялась в крайне неблагоприятных погодных условиях) четырьмя эшелонами были доставлены спецпереселенцы-осадники — 5821 человек, в пути умерли 12 человек, 26 заболевших сданы в железнодорожные медучреждения и 1 человек бежал. Таким образом, смертность в пути составила 0,2%, а общие потери (с больными и бежавшим) — менее 0,7%. Однако обнаруженные архивные данные о смертности в пути отрывочны. В других эшелонах она могла быть выше.

For several echelons with deported it was possible to locate in the archives information regarding mortality rate during the transportaion time. According to it the mortality rate was considerably lower than expected (if taking into account the deporties statements, F.ex. Grudzinska-Gross I., Gross J.T. W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sibir zeslali… Warszawa: Respublika i Libra, 1990. 511 S.).
One of the documents, in the beginning of March 1940 there were 4 echelons from West Belorussia to Taishet of Irkutsk region. This was one of the longest routes , which also took place in the worst wather conditions. These 4 echelons carried: special migrant osadniks - 5821 people. 12 of them died during the transportaion. 26 were left in the railway medical facilities on the way. And 1 run away.
So the death rate was about 0,2% and total loss (with ill and run away) - less than 0,7%.
But the information regarding mortality during transportation is not complete and it could be higher in other echelons.

В сведениях о движении спецпереселенцев имеются, в частности, данные о числе умерших за данный квартал, что позволяет определить фактический уровень смертности среди польских спецпереселенцев в целом за период 1940–1941 гг. Со времени расселения спецпереселенцев-осадников до 1 июля 1941 г. (после этой даты в архивных документах НКВД сохранились лишь отрывочные данные), то есть за 16 месяцев пребывания на спецпоселении, умерли 10 864 человека — 7,7% от общего числа прибывших. Это соответствует годовому коэффициенту смертности, составляющему около 5,8%. Среди спецпереселенцев-беженцев со времени расселения до 1 июля 1941 г., то есть примерно за 11–11,5 месяца пребывания на спецпоселении, умерли 1855 человек — 2,4% от числа прибывших, что соответствует годовому коэффициенту смертности, составляющему около 2,5%.
.
.
.
Сравним эти показатели с данными демографа Сергея Максудова, согласно которым годовой коэффициент смертности среди всего населения СССР в период голода 1932–1933 гг. составлял 4–5%, а в 1939 г. — 1,7%. Предположим, что последний показатель допустимо экстраполировать на последующие полтора года, вплоть до нападения Германии на СССР. В таком случае окажется, что в регионах «обоюдного» расселения обеих категорий спецпереселенцев «избыточная» смертность депортированных польских граждан, то есть превышение над «нормальным» советским уровнем смертности 1939 г., среди осадников составляла около 4,2% в годовом исчислении и была в 3,5 раза выше, чем среди беженцев (1,2%).

The statistics for number of deaths per quarter was also available, which enabled us to find out the factual mortality level among polish forced settlers for the whole period of 1940 - 1941.
Among osadniki settlers class, from the beginning of deportation and until 01-July-1941 (after that the information was very fragmented), i.e. for 16 months, 10.864 people died - 7,7% of the total number. This translates in to about 5,8% yearly death rate.
Among the refugies settlers class, from the begining and until 01-July-1941, i.e. 11 months, 1855 people died - 2,4%, which yelds 2,5% yearly death rate.
.
.
.
Compare it to the data provided by demograph Sergey Maksudov, who states death rate for the population of USSR.Death rate was 4% - 5% in 1932 - 1933 (famine years). And 1,7% in 1939.
Assuming the death rate in USSR was the same until after the German agression, the death rate of polish settlers was several times higher.

#13

Concerning the total number of the Polish citizens subjected to repressions, Polish historian Zbigniew Gluza estimates it as 600,000:

A wynikająca z całej dzisiejszej wiedzy statystyka jest taka, że pod okupacją sowiecką było nie 2-2,5 mln represjonowanych, jak wcześniej podawano, a około 600 tys. Margines błędu to najwyżej 30-40 tys.

(I think it’s understandable for the Russians without translation)
http://www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,76842,3909129.html (in Polish)
This number coincides with the number given on the site of the Russian organization “Memorial” - about 700,000 (taking into account 100-120 thousands of the Soviet citizens of Polish origin, which were subjected to repressions in the years of “Big terror” 1937-1938)

#14

Lexa,

You see, in the original thread “Justification for Deportation Poles and other ethnic groups from Eastern Poland?” Marek (1PUK) referred ONLY to deportation of 1940 - 1941.
He wrote “Figures deported vary. Have read upto 1.7 million.
Figures for number that died also varies upto at least a half, maybe more.”

IMHO, you confuse Marek (and me) with your last comment.
This is because, firstly, the number you mentioned is given for the whole period of 1930 – 1950, i.e. not the period we are looking at right now. Here is the quote from Memorial site you referred to:

http://www.memo.ru/history/POLAcy/vved/Index.htm
… впервые получить достоверную оценку истинных масштабов советских репрессий, затронувших поляков и польских граждан: 160–180 тысяч жертв до 1939 года и 510-540 тысяч — в период после 17 сентября 1939 года.

Secondly, as it states in the same site

В нашем обзоре термин «поляки и польские граждане» относится как к советским гражданам польской национальности, так и к полякам, проживавшим на всех территориях довоенной Польши, а также к польским гражданам других национальностей, проживавшим на территориях, захваченных Советским Союзом в 1939–1940 гг. В таблице не учтены лишь довоенные польские граждане немецкой национальности, проживавшие в западной части Польши, репрессированные советскими органами в 1944–1945 гг. как немцы.

Which in short means the number 670.000 – 720.000 covers poles living on any territories (Poland or USSR) as well as polish citizens of any nationality. Which is again is a bit away from the scope of our discussion.

What I understand this very thread is ONLY about deportation of Polesish citizens in the period 1940 - 1941. This issue is covered by the article I referred to in my previous post (http://www.memo.ru/HISTORY/POLAcy/G_1.htm ). It gives number of max 325.000 people.
By the way, it is also from Memorial site, in case you have some prejudice to other sources.

#15

to Igor:

If this thread is only about 1940-1941 (which wasn’t specified by Marek however), then the number of 1.7 mln is completely unrealistic anyway. My previous post was to critisize this number. I cited a Polish author, because Marek may be distrustful to Russian sources :slight_smile:

As to the article of Gur’janov that you partly translated, it is very good. Gur’yanov is one of the best specialists in this field, and his works are based on real documents from archives.

#16

I agree with this number - about 320,000 - for 1940-1941 deportations.

It’s not because I agree with everything that comes from “Memorial”. I do not :wink:

#17

Lexa,

It is important to define what period we are talking about. The numbers would abviously be very different if we look at 100, 25 or 2 year periods.

Marek in the opening message wrote:

This is a continuation of my original thread -
“Justification for Deportation Poles and other ethnic groups from Eastern Poland?”.

Just wanted to keep the replies to this question separate, so I started a new thread.

But in the original thread he spoke of ONLY 1940 - 1941.

We can of course talk about the whole period of 30th - 50th, but I suppose it should be in a separate thread, because the reasons for repressions were different during different time spans.

By the way, Marek, thank you for this thread. Because of it I learened better about this issue!

#18

???

http://www.stalinsethniccleansing.com/nextnn.htm

It was clear that many people would die.

#19

It was clear that many people would die.
Stalin didn’t care about it, as well as about deported Ukrainians, Russians, Germans, Chechens, and others.

Marek, it’s difficult to reply to remarks like “???”.
I think that “Polish operation” wasn’t ethnic cleansing in its classic form.
Stalin deported 320 thousands from about 5-6 mln of Poles living in the Eastern Poland. Even regarding the total number of Polish citizens subjected to repressions - about 600 thousands - it looks more like a “class” cleansing than ethnic one. Which is not much better. I’ve read that about a half of these people perished, including those who were murdered in Katyn and other places.

#20

Marek,

You oppened the thread and it would be nice to hear if you got any answers or learned anything from our replies.