…that the current BBC/Discovery/History channels always describe the German attackers of WWII as Nazis?
I know for a fact that the crews of aircraft/tanks/ships and the infantry were not card carrying Nazies. The majority were just Germans who were following their governments policies.
I’ve spent a lot of time in Germany and I know they feel badley about what they did (unlike the Japs who who think it was a great adventure gone wrong :shock: ).
Are we in danger of airbrushing what really happened? I always remember the reaction of the locals seen on film when being shown Belsen in all it’s glory. They MUST have known what was going on. I’d be interested to hear what our German members think?
Really don’t want you to beat yourselves up about this just your thoughts.
No cant agree with you there. What we have is a media that wants to put a label on your average German who wanted to fight the fight against what he/her saw as the enemy. Most of them supported what happened and voted Hitler in.
Yes we should look to the future but the past should never be forgotten.
No cant agree with you there. What we have is a media that wants to put a label on your average German who wanted to fight the fight against what he/her saw as the enemy. Most of them supported what happened and voted Hitler in.
Yes we should look to the future but the past should never be forgotten.[/quote] (No offence, but I’ve cleaned up the thread quote.)
I’m in total agreement with you there - I think the Ancient Spotty Chicken was responsible for my lack of articulation.
Yes Hr Schickelgrüber was voted in democratically, and I’m certain that at least those Germans living near the camps had more then a fair idea of what went on there.
What I meant to say was that it is generally accepted that the alliances of today should take precedence over the crimes of the past.
“We should pehaps forgive, but we can never forget.”
Those words were told to me many years ago by a survivor of the Burma railway.
I cannot but agree with him, and also think that the same sentiment is applicable to the events in europe.
What do you mean by this? I must admit that I shouldn’t have used a rather insulting comment and I appologise unreservedly if it’s offended anyone, I’ll edit it out.
But you cannot deny that the Japanese have been able through American policies to paper over a lot of what they did during the war and their treatment of the Chinese (Nanking anyone?) just before it.
No I agree with you both no-one expects either the Germans or the japanese to go around saying sorry like that Harry Enfield character forever appologising for his countries conduct during the war. But with the Japs putting up museums to their glorious dead is a bit galling. This together with the way the war is hardly mentioned in history classes and when it is it’s usually in the “we were forced into it” way.
Germany has seemed to take it all very sensibly. The dangers of the Nazis is well taken care of in german schools and the lesson is not to forget but learn from whats happened. It seems that the japs will never get that far with their approach.
Excellent point about Stalin, what a war criminal he would have been.
What do you mean by this? I must admit that I shouldn’t have used a rather insulting comment and I appologise unreservedly if it’s offended anyone, I’ll edit it out.
But you cannot deny that the Japanese have been able through American policies to paper over a lot of what they did during the war and their treatment of the Chinese (Nanking anyone?) just before it.
.[/quote]
Yes it is insulting and it’s the sort of comment I would expect from a 12 year old.
No you can’t deny what the Japanese did in nanking, nor can you deny what the brits did to the boer families in South Africa, or the Belgians in the Congo or the Americans at My Lai. It doesn’t make any of them ‘scabby’.
However, you apologised which shows good character. So i’m sure my missus will forgive you. :twisted:
Seemed to have made a bit of a horlicks of this one and not through including one stupid word either.
Been PM’d by one of the german members asking why I was attacking the germans again. I say here what I told him this was never meant to be a poke at them at all. The question I was asking is why the media try to put a spin on the German forces by pretending that they were all nazis instead of just ordinary blokes like us. Cuts was gracious enough to ingnore my childishness (or army speak, take your choice ) and give an answer which reflected this and thank you for that.
Student-scaley how you can compare the rape of Nanking to the Boer war concentraion camps is beyond me. The British government allowed an estimated 50000 people (depending on your sources) to die through stupidity. The boer war was one version of the modern American wars in Iraq which was based on money. Instead of oil insert gold and diamonds and it should never be treated as a glorious part of our past. They never intended that these people should die it was an stupid accident.
I don’t think you know how many British soldiers went went through the camps bayonetting people for practice? Or lining humans up to allow British officers to practice their sword cutting techniques?
370000 people were slaughtered by the Japs in Nanking alone with an estimated 80000 women raped and a lot of them mutilated. This was done in cold blood and it’s still something they refuse to admit or appologise for.
Don’t know enough about Mai Lai or the Belgians in the Congo to comment on these but I’ve got the feeling that they both fall well short of the treatment the Japanese doled out to these “sub-humans”.
First of all i would never compare the scale of atrocities between Nanking and the Boer, but a atrocity is still an atrocity no matter what the bodycount, just because one is smaller than the other it does in no way diminish that atrocity.
And as for this
I don’t think you know how many British soldiers went went through the camps bayonetting people for practice? Or lining humans up to allow British officers to practice their sword cutting techniques?
This is just silly and really unbecoming.
With reference to Mai lai and the Belgian congo these are incidents where civilians were killed indiscriminately similiar to Nanking. I would like to make it clear that I beleive the atrocities in Nanking were atrocious and I am pretty confident that those involved are probably all burning in hell right now. However, there is no need to start lowering the tone of this rather spiffing site with phrases such as ‘scabby japs’. I’m going out with a Japanese girl, i’ve moved on, the world has moved on, why can’t you?
First of all i would never compare the scale of atrocities between Nanking and the Boer, but a atrocity is still an atrocity no matter what the bodycount, just because one is smaller than the other it does in no way diminish that atrocity.
And as for this
I don’t think you know how many British soldiers went went through the camps bayonetting people for practice? Or lining humans up to allow British officers to practice their sword cutting techniques?
This is just silly and really unbecoming.
With reference to Mai lai and the Belgian congo these are incidents where civilians were killed indiscriminately similiar to Nanking. I would like to make it clear that I beleive the atrocities in Nanking were atrocious and I am pretty confident that those involved are probably all burning in hell right now. However, there is no need to start lowering the tone of this rather spiffing site with phrases such as ‘scabby japs’. I’m going out with a Japanese girl, i’ve moved on, the world has moved on, why can’t you?[/quote]
SS, I think your major problem with SH’s post was the quite understandable protective feelings you have for your girlfriend.
I have visited Japan on a great number of times and can confirm that the majority of modern Japanse seem to be of a different mindset to those of the interim war years.
I say seem only because of the much touted devotion to the workplace - has this been the replacement for the earlier devotion to the God-Emperor ?
What I think SH was getting at - through squaddie speak maybe - was the utter denial and lack of apology for the acts of unspeakable cruelty committed during the thirties and forties.
That successive Japanese governments have decided to rewrite the history books is a sad rflection upon them.
Is the refusal to apologise fully for the atrocities backed by some fear that the few surviving prisoners might claim some monetary compensation, or is there another reason ?
This (to western eyes) lack of remorse has resulted in a feeling amongst the surviving veterans and their families of astonishment, disbelief and in certain cases hate.
I know a number of people of several nationalities who survived the Japanese work camps and the treatment, they received therein, and with one notable exception none have very much time for their earlier captors.
Putting aside your feelings for your sweetheart SS, can you blame them for feeling like this ?
The one exception to this attitude is a gentleman who after his enforced labour on the railway was taken to Japan to work in a mine.
He says that in the camps that while food was scarce for the slaves they were never short of cigarettes, in fact he gave me several instances where fags & biscuits were thrown by Japanese troops from railway carriages to the POWs.
Further, he said that while in Japan the many women walking past to work were forbidden to speak to them, but this did not stop some showing sympathy & leaving packages of rice on the low wall behind where the prisoners worked.
He was however at pains to impress upon me that the acts of kindness shown by the Japanese soldiers and civilians were most definitely in the minority.
For myself I can only say that the Japanese women I have met while over there were in general both sweet and accommodating.
When the war ended and the Japanese surrendered McArthur was put in charge of Japan. For the next six years he wrote the new constitution, decided where Japan should head and how it would do it. He was also ultimately responsible for the reformation of the country.
So the question is, was Japan punished enough at the time?
Why should they have to apologise continually for deeds done and already punished for?
Stumpy It’s just that since the Nazi regime was in power politically, the military extension of that power was called the same thing. It’s no different than calling all Italians Fascists. Any loosely related military force of a counrty could legitimately be named after the political force presiding at the time.
Yes but don’t you find it odd when supposedly enlightened media don’t even mention in the same breath that word (facisit) with Italy? They invented it for gods sake. Mussolini had it up and running well before Hitler came on the stage and was a bit miffed that the latter unpstaged the former.
Why does our media treat Italy better than their old allies Germany? Is it because the Italians jumped ship at the right time?
Cuts, Thank you for putting it better than I could, you’re much better at articulatimation (not a real word unless you live on planet Bush) and I want to breast feed your baby’s :shock: .
Student-scaley I assume your out of school and now in University (hence the handle?). If so you’re a credit to Blairs generation and are showing all the faults of todays view of history. I know it’s not the Naffai bar but there have been worse things said on here. My partner is from Liverpool and it depresses her when all scousers are painted with the “thieving scouse git” label. She actually works harder than me but you won’t see me throwing my teddies in the corner because of something posted on Arrse.
Hope to god you never get an Argentinian girlfriend or you’ll be taking Erwin to task (in whatever guise he is now) and throwing more hissey-fits. Only you are out of step with this thread everyone else is taking it for what it is, a discussion of the current state of things.
Atrocity is a very broad brush. It can be applied to our troops in the Boer war as well as the Japs. But it still doesn’t take away the fact that British troops did not bayonet Boer prisoners and Jap troops did. No matter who you’re involved with you cant change history.
Sick of saying that the post war generations should not suffer for their fathers but if you want to say that my opinion must not upset anyone then you are wrong. At the moment my opinion is is my own but I’ve got the feeling that your Blair governement will punish me for this???!
Hope thatyou’ve kept Blair onside in this or else you’ll feel the collar coming and that is the sadess thing of anything here.
Me a blairite? Now i’m insulted, i’d rather staple my testicles to a chair than be part of his mob, in fact i’m actually a card carrying member of the other bunch (well, they do good lunches that was enough to convince me)
But i’m sorry I have to disagree with you about post war generations suffering because of their fathers. They shouldn’t, they weren’t there it wasn’t their fault. Indeed they should be made to learn the lessons of previous generations mistakes and I believe every Japanese school kid should have the horrors of Nanknig rammed down their throats, just as every German school kid should have the Holocaust down theirs. But that’s where it should end. There is no need to start having a go at the present generation.
Furthermore, I don’t do hissey-fits they’re undignified and not very officer like.
I think its the easy option to just label them all Nazis, this allows those in Germany to join in as well.
As for the Japanese, well I do think that they feel that it was an adventure gone wrong as well. I think they want to just sweep the facts of their gross atrocities in China under the carpet. Thats why they have a policy of not simply denial, but deliberate misinformation. Never mind the millions butchered there are also the so called ‘Comfort Girls’ who were in reality thousands of Koean and other girls simply rounded up and sent to be sex slaves.
I have nothing against the Japanese, I admire them in many ways but at the same time abhor the way that they can just sweep things away as if they never happened, because deep down they know what they did, or at least bloody well should know.
) and give an answer which reflected this and thank you for that.