World Without Communism

Other Wars Cold War
#1

The collapse of the USSR signalled a dramatic and potentially dangerous shift in the balance of power around the globe. Since 1945 the countries behind the Iron Curtain held the world’s attention during a prolonged Cold War.

Whether you hold a for or against stance the political system behind the Iron Curtain was already in trouble before Gorbachev, Regan or Thatcher came along. The combined actions of these three hastened the end of the Soviet Union and it’s satellite states, leading to not only a huge power vaccum but a potentially unstable pot pourri of independant states.

But would have the Soviet Union along with it’s communist allies have gradually moved towards democracy and capitalism in time as we are seeing the gradual transformation of communist China into a communist/capitalist society?

And what place will the big three statesmen hold in history? Were their actions correct or not?

Regards Digger

#2

In my opinion they fall due to their own failures and mistakes…the external action was not that influential.

#3

I understand you mate. However there is a very big element who follow the theory the efforts of Regan and Thatcher to isolate the Soviet Union and outspend them on military hardware was instrumental in the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Case in point Regan’s Evil Empire speech.

Regards Bob.

#4

I think the most powerful weapon agaist the comunism was the high life standar achieved in western Europe in 1980s, thing that made open the eyes to more that one russian citizen. :rolleyes:

Reagan might help but I dont think that a speech really matters.

#5

The Soviet Union was a government run by lies. They couldn’t hold up any longer, and things eventually came back at them and became very hecktick. Just a web of lies in my opinion…

#6

Good points guys, which raises another question. Granted that totalarian regimes are built around lies and distortions, but the same can be said of democracies.

Perhaps it’s the devil in the detail? I think Panzerknacker’s point about the people wanting a lifestyle as enjoyed in the West was very important.

Regards Digger.

#7

The Soviet system was going bad by the mid-1960s. Reagan, and Pope John Paul, get far too much credit for the fall of “communism.”

But I have to say, I’ve always wondered what it would be like if Trotsky had won the power struggle, and had eliminated Stalin. Would communism have been something akin to West European democratic socialism?

#8

Hi guys. What’s a nice day
Dear Digger have open the very interesting thread, thanks mate.

Well this was a possible way of soviet transformations in end of 1980y. And this sould be the best way IMHO.Becouse in the begining the 1991 in the Russia come to power criminals gov. in head of Eltsin. Thay begin a stupig economic reform ( according the recomendations of of western “economists”) which was the resault of lost about 70% of economic power or state. Some people had the problems with food.Becouse manies ogranisaition hadn’t money to pay salary. The mafia openly did it’s work. This was the most difficult time sine the 1945 as told me my father in 1993 when i had finished the school.
So thereis the point Digger. Could USSR to repit the way of China and saved its people and state from starvation in 1990. I think no.
Becouse the soviet communist party in contraduction with young power Chine’s communists were degraded. They simply didn’t see the dangerous of Gorbachev and could stop him . They lost the situation control after the 1990.
So indeed we had the situation which was- the practicaly full collapse of state authorities. And as the resault the criminal illegality in period after this.

BTW I don’t think the world communism fall down becouse today China demostrate the amazing stable economical growth. Consider it like neo-communism.
Conteporary China look like the really independent ecomomical power state which protects its interes , but not by agressive way like it did the USSR and USA continie to do. I/m still sure in great communist future of this state.

Cheers.

#9

Regan , Pope Paul and Thatcher had nothig influence to the crased of USSR indeed.
The main reason was the Gorbachev and old Politburo idiots which were inpossible to held the power. USSR lose the information war, not economic or military competition with US.
Becouse if those communist idiot could able to think they must to know what could be the reason the desintigartion of USSR - war conflict , death about 6 million people only in Russia from the criminal illegality and worst economic conditions.

But I have to say, I’ve always wondered what it would be like if Trotsky had won the power struggle, and had eliminated Stalin. Would communism have been something akin to West European democratic socialism?

The Trotsky indeed was not able to take the power. He was pure theoretic. But this bastard had a power finantional support in 1917-18 from the New-York banker. Trotsky got about $20 million from the his friends ( enourmous money in this time) for the begining “russian” proletarian revolution. (Also there is the informaion that Lenin got the money from the Germany).
But “theoretical” specialisation not bother him to do the practice evil.
Trotsky was one who was responsible for the Big Red therror- cruel killing about million of christian in 1918-1921.

Would communism have been something akin to West European democratic socialism

Are you kidding mate?
Trostky supported the stupid idea of world proletarion revolution. He ordered the Tuchachevskij use the Red Army to invade the western Europe( to help the Germans worker to make the own revolution) . Thanks to the pole this army was crused near the Warsaw. If it didn’t happen the whole the Germany had the revolution and first what would do the Trosky - to begin the Europear Red terror like it was in Russia.
Don’t forget that the atrosities of bolshevics forced the West Europe to bias to the nazism.

cheers.

#10

Agree with Chevan, the permanent revolution of the Troskist movement was impracticable.

One Modern-time troskist was Ernesto Guevara…fortunately he did not survived longer… :twisted: :twisted:

#11

Hello!

Someone mentioned here that the USSR regim was based on lies. Though we got probably more lies per ear compare to the western countries, the extent of it was not as dramatic as it is pictured now. In fact the longer I live the more I find cases that we were told the truth, but rejected it before as propaganda.

Another interesting thing, as I see it, ia that ex Soviet citizens was a generation of deceived people. I am reffering to the radio broadcast from abroad like BBC or “Voice of America” or “German Wave”. My grand father listened to them very often during the late hours and so did I quite a bit. It was interesting. Forexample I liked the “literature hour” on BBC around 23:00. They would read from some books writen by the dissidents and so on. There were news and political analysis programs. It is only now I am starting to understand how much propaganda all these programs contained (together with correct data of course).

One of the curious, in my oppinion, examples is that one of the messages was that soviet citizens were not free to travel to other countries (rather correct at that time) and if only Soviet system let them go they would be so welcome to come to other countries. Very many people honestly beleived that someone kind and warm would welcome them in a far land. It is only now I lough at my self. What a moron I was to think like that! :slight_smile: As soon as USSR opened borders, the west closed them. And who can blame them? They did right thing. But the whole country was mislead.

Conclusion: We lost the information war, not economical one.

#12

A world without the scourage of Communism would be a glorious world indeed. Sadly, I doubt it will ever happen. It will always exist as an idea, but that doesn’t mean we can’t stifle and snuff out that idea whenever possible.

#13

What about a world without fascism? As communism is just fascism in a pretty shade of pink.

#14

Hehehee… and could you explain us in few frases the essence of the Communist idea, please?
Lets see if you can get it correct…

#15

WHO the hell told you that? Uncle Sam?

In fact if you want a picture of the world without communism I can draw you a rough one in here:

[ol]
[li]Half of the world is Fascist or worse - Nazi! Want it or not the communists were the leading force in Europe to fight against Fascism and NAzism. And I am not talking about the USSR.[/li][li]And if one day US whould help UK to bit Nazi Europe they would had lost millions of pople. So many of you would not have been born. And you know your self Western Allies think 10 times before sacrifising the people, right? So do you think they would save the millions of the counrymen lifes and let the other half of the world remain under Nizist rule?[/li][li]The high living standards in Europe and USA (thank you consumer society for the global warming and other ecological problems) would not be nearly so high. A lot of the rights (economical ones especially) were given to you to counterbalance the communist ideas.[/li][/ol]

By the way, I am not a communist at all! It is just every plague is given to us for a purpose by Devine Providence. Communism is one of those plagues. But you do not see what is the reall problem with it, in my most humble opinion.

#16

Egorka our frined Nickdfresh simply could not admit the fact than soon (through 10-15 years) the Communist China will excel the USA in the economic power and influence in the world.:wink:

3.The high living standards in Europe and USA (thank you consumer society for the global warming and other ecological problems) would not be nearly so high. A lot of the rights (economical ones especially) were given to you to counterbalance the communist ideas.

BTW mate you hve touched the very importain porblem of western world.
After the collapse of the Soviet blook the western capitalists simply do not see the reason to increase the social guaranties for the workers.
If fact after the 1990 the relation of increasing the income of the average class / the superpover class is even decreasing.
And i know my friend Nick is not rich so would not so glad in his place for the FINAL downfall of communism.:wink:

#17

Sorry but I see A HUGE difference between Modern China and Soviet Russia. Chairman Mao would role over in his grave if he new what was going on in modern day China. JMO!

#18

Why would one want a world without Communism? Communism is not a bad thing. In fact it promotes many good things and isn’t far removed from what is written in the American Declaration of Independance. It isn’t Communism which is bad, it is what men do in the name of Communism. The real problem with Communism is that it doesn’t take into account the ambition and drive of the individual. Sadly, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Trotskyism have given Communism a bad name. I wonder how many of those that ‘pour scorn’ on Communists and Communism have actually read Marx’s Communist Manifesto?

Personally, I love my country and its political system ( with all of its flaws) far too much to consider living anywhere else in the world, under any other form of government.

Glancing quickly accross time, it appears to me that those revolutionaries whom have embraced and promoted Communism, have been a part of an extremely unequal society - practically feudal. However, they, in the most part, were promoting revolution in order to gain power for themselves - where, otherwise they would have no chance of power - and not for the greater good of their people.

#19

But do you think that your point of view may not be objective, but just a matter of habit?

Glancing quickly accross time, it appears to me that those revolutionaries whom have embraced and promoted Communism, have been a part of an extremely unequal society - practically feudal. However, they, in the most part, were promoting revolution in order to gain power for themselves - where, otherwise they would have no chance of power - and not for the greater good of their people.

I think some of them geniounly wanted the best, and not just for themself, but for others. The problem was that they did not mind going in the blood up to the knees towards their goals.

#20

No, I don’t have any habits when it comes to thinking and not thinking - I could ask you whether you are thinking that I am incapable of a considered opinion on the subject, as a matter of habit…rubbish!

I think some of them geniounly wanted the best, and not just for themself, but for others. The problem was that they did not mind going in the blood up to the knees towards their goals.

Well, if you are right, then the power corrupted them and they lost sight of what they were truly fighting for. It would not be for the first, nor the last time. Robespierre, is a classic example, as is Hitler. I think, maybe you are speaking from habit and dressing it up with objectivity - ruthless, hard decisions etc. etc.

These people were living in societies which were unequal and unfair. People of intelect and ability who could never find themselves in a situation in which they could gain power without bringing down the regimes which governed/ruled over them. I imagine that you feel that the society in which you were raised and educated was worth them going up to their knees in blood, it usually is when its someone elses blood. Are you being objective, or merely grateful?

The point which I was so inadequate in making, was that it wasn’t Communism which people should fear, but the regime.

Would it be possible, please, for once, to debate with you without you having to resort to accusations of coldwar propaganda or a lack of objectivity? I can appreciate we have cultural differences and that, perhaps, it is your way to try to put your opponent on the defensive, but I don’t realy care about your opinion of me personally, I’m more interested in what you have to say on the topic. If you disagree with me, then, by all means, disagree. I’m willing to consider your point of view, but the rest becomes rather wearing.
It reminds me of the question in the UN which was unanswered and inspired the comment regarding hell freezing over.