WW2 Land Mines in North Africa.

World War II General WWII Discussion
#1

Since the mid 1990’s the various North African regimes in what was Cyrenaica (effectively, Libya), Tunisia, Algeria, etc have very loudly insisted that European Governments be the ones to foot the bill for the uplifting and disposal of the landmines laid in their millions on various North African battlefronts during WW2. Every 6th month or so, there are huge and usually unproven claims in the media of this or that “poor Arab farmer” losing a leg or being killed outright by said landmines. Naturally, there follows the repeated call for European nations to “Solve this terrible problem”.

I Take a very contrary view, but before I get to that, I shall preface it with an explanation as to why I do so.

According to the Prophet Mohammed, a Christian or Jew should rightly be buried if found dead above ground, with a slight modification of the method a Muslim Believer is buried.
This is because Mohammed regarded Christians and Jews as “People of The Book”, and thus entitled to decent burial.
Where a Muslim should be buried with the words: “Receive him into Paradise, Oh Allah” (Slight paraphrase, but accurate) a Person of the Book (Believer in One Almighty God) should be buried with the words: “Receive him into Rest, Oh Allah”, said over the grave of the recently buried dead.
Any Muslim has the same Instruction/Injunction/Duty/Obligation as defined by the Prophet Mohammed.

This, the Muslim populations in the areas that had been battlefronts always failed to do.

What they found time and effort to do, was to rob the dead of either side, and leave the dead in nothing more than their underwear, rotting above ground.

The British record this, the Germans record it, and the Italians record the same. All three nations cannot therefore be wrong nor biased, since all three made efforts to bury such dead as were found once the fighting had passed beyond the immediate area.

Now to My view on the landmines.

If said landmines are to ever be removed, let the oil-Dollar-Rich Arab/Muslim nations pay the price of it, at say, $10,000 PER landmine. The non-Muslim economies would surely benefit from it and it would redress a lot of the economic imbalance from which the world economy currently suffers.

Given that the local Arabs/Muslims found the time to rob the European dead, but NOT bury them, I regard the mines punishing them for that some 70 years later as perfectly acceptable. . . . After all, nothing excused them from decency towards the dead, nothing Demanded they rob the dead.
Therefore, let the dead have their justice. QED.

Regards, Uyraell.

#2

It’s not $10K per mine. There are various de-mining machines that are not unlike the “funnies” (flail tanks) from WWII that can remove the vast majority of mines in an area quickly…

#3

Then why are de-mining crews using individual men and basic probing and, if they’re lucky, basic electronic equipment as the basis for most, maybe all, de-mining in many former war areas?

Do the flails work for anti-personnel mines as well as for anti-tank mines?

Perhaps they’re not suitable for anything except fairly open country?

I saw a TV program here a while back about some Aussies who were involved in de-mining in S.E. Asia (can’t recall exactly where) who were training locals and some of it wasn’t much more advanced than WWII probing with a bayonet. A bloody courageous lot, both the Aussies but especially the locals.

And, on a serious lighter note, here is an entry for this year’s ‘Stating the Bleeding Obvious Award’ from a mine clearance paper dealing with mine clearing injuries.

The second most common incident involves stepping on a “missed-mine.” Missed-mine incidents indicate that clearance has not been effective.
http://maic.jmu.edu/Journal/4.2/Focus/PN/protectneeds.htm

#4

The new generation of mine clearing equipment works just as well on anti personnel mines as anti tank mines but I think where the problem lies is they aren’t dealing with vast mine fields like the ones mine clearing equipment was designed to neutralize. The known minefields were cleared long ago but there are individual mines all over the place and it would be very expensive and impossible to comb all of North Africa with large mine clearing equipment to try and find even a few hundred mines in that large of an area.

This shows the mentality of the North African countries though. Say in France or Germany someone stepped on an old mine and was injured or killed. The respective countries government would take all the precautions they could to sweep the entire area for mines and try to make sure it doesn’t happen again, not just protest for someone else to come clean up the mess and let more of their own people get injured.

#5

Perhaps that shows the difference in wealth between European and North African countries.

Or maybe just in the way they apply their wealth, and how they value the members on the lower rungs of their society who are most likely to be farmers etc who stumble upon remnant mines. :frowning:

Then again, the wars fought in North Africa in WWII had nothing to do with the people there but purely with European conflicts fought on their soil, so why shouldn’t European combatants, America, Australia, New Zealand and any other nations involved pay for fixing it up?

#6

I think your argument for the application of their wealth is more correct than saying they aren’t wealthy enough to do it themselves. I don’t see oil rich nations not having the recourses to put towards looking for mines. Now I am not denying the reason for the land mines being there in the first place is because of the European nations but no matter where the initial fault lies you don’t just sit there placidly on your @$$es while your own people are dying and wait for someone else to fix the problem because they caused it over 60 years ago. Certainly not in a western nation that is.

#7

Exactly. Two years ago, a young child found two American hand grenades in my former kindergarden’s sandbox and proudly showed them to the shocked Teacher. Can you imagine the teacher just looking at them, and saying ‘Great find, Timmy! Now, be nice and put them back there. We’ll call the US Army right away and ask them to remove them.’

No.

They called up the local authorities, and an EOD-Team came, took care of the two grenades and swiped the entire area, finding a couple of US Mortars.

It should be noted that one of the two Grenades was found with the pin removed. I think it is save to assume that between the discovery and the call for the authorities, a lot of screaming, crying and panicking occurred… :mrgreen:

#8

Which is what I am assuming we’re mostly talking about, whole swaths of desert or steppes that may have mine fields with pathways. You are correct that de-mining can be very expensive as UXO techs demand a premium, but in certain situations you may only need a mininimal number with an operator in a machine…

I saw a TV program here a while back about some Aussies who were involved in de-mining in S.E. Asia (can’t recall exactly where) who were training locals and some of it wasn’t much more advanced than WWII probing with a bayonet. A bloody courageous lot, both the Aussies but especially the locals.

And, on a serious lighter note, here is an entry for this year’s ‘Stating the Bleeding Obvious Award’ from a mine clearance paper dealing with mine clearing injuries.

http://maic.jmu.edu/Journal/4.2/Focus/PN/protectneeds.htm

It can be very hazardous in primitive conditions. And UXOs are always in demand. The situations I’ve dealt with them was sort of the opposite end of the spectrum as it rarely involved real, live ordinance and they were getting paid a lot of money to clear training devices and what amounted to military waste (that is inert parts of mines rather that actual devices) from the early part of the 20th century. I do understand that strict safety protocols even though it seemed a bit silly in certain situations to assume the worst, prohibitively expensive, and took a long time…

There was however some pretty big live stuff that was rare, such as a 155mm and several “blow-offs” or ordinance that was thrown off a “shot” or explosion design to detonate excess or obsolete stuff long ago…

#9

Different question: Is there some kind of ‘Expiry Date’ for Mines? Wouldn’t they rust away after a certain amount of time, or will there be people blowing up from WW1 mines in 2200?

I guess it’s obvious that I have no idea out of what materials the old, pre-plastic era, mines were made/how they prevented oxidation…

#10

I have no idea about the lifetime of WWI and WWII mines but I know there have been a few collectors blown up here in the States digging up Civil War era cannon balls and that was over 140 years ago. Granted cannon balls are not landmines but it shows that some ordinance can have an incredibly long lifespan even underground.

#11

Ummm… there is a massive difference between clearing the majority of the mines in an area (e.g. for a military breech in a minefield, which is what the demining machines out there are effectively trained to do) and declaring an area clear from mines. A machine can only get say 95% of the mines in an area. To get anywhere near the 100% required to declare an area free from mines/UXO needs humans to do what is pretty much a fingertip search of the area.
This carries a serious risk for the demining staff, which is why areas with low value land and high concentrations of unmapped mines (North Africa, the Falkland Islands) are simply roped off and left - the benefit of clearing them is negligible, while the cost in blood and treasure is high.

#12

Just recently to! Never use a drill on a Naval cannon ball. Those balls are sealed for moisture and in all probability the black powder is good and dry.

I guess today, if they wanted to clear the minds, fuel-air explosives would be the way. Overpressure to detonate the mines. And for those that resist, a really really strong electro-magnet. I mean really strong!

Deaf

#13

Deaf Smith, we’re still talking about Third World countries here. The people are barely able to buy their daily food in some of those areas, and you expect them to get some Fuel-Air explosives and Ultra-high-powered Electro-magnet?

Though, on second thought, if their Upper Class would give a damn, they probably could. But they don’t, so they can’t.

#14

Even if there was a will to solve the problem using state-of-the-art technology, the removal of mines in such an enviroment will be extremely complicated, mainly because of the shifting sands that can bury a mine field one day and clear it on the next one.
I think the best way to solve the problem would be a joint operation with the western powers providing the expertize and the locals the manpower, and maybe a division of the cost, after all, mines are everybodys problem.

With mines and other explosive devices one can never know, the french, for example,(who have the best and most experienced deminers units in the world) colect several tons of material per year (the remains of the last 3 wars fought in their territories, starting with the 1870’s franco-prussian war), and most of this material is rusty on the outside but brand new on the inside, and several deminers and civilians die each year because of this left-overs. By there estimatives it will take at least 700 years to clean all of France!!!

#15

Some of the sea-mines from WW1 are still afloat, though rarely encountered these days, which is a small mercy.

The early models of WW2 landmines, be they AT or AP are interesting . . . some were cased in (close enough to) tool-steel, which basically makes them immortal. Nor are the distinguishing factors readily visually apparent.
Given the usual North African climate, the things could be there, and stable, for decades to come.

Regards, Uyraell.

#16

If France’s next 700 years is anything like its last 700 years, it might be better off leaving the ordnance in place against future invaders. :slight_smile:

#17

They might even want to consider adding a couple more…

#18

I never had anything to do with UXO, apart from a wander around a firing range with a group of officers, who presumably took me and a few other grunts along for amusement or as mascots or maybe mine finders as I can’t recall why we were in their august company.

After giving me and the other grunts a stern warning about not picking up anything on the range, and then entering it contrary to the prohibition signs, the officers wandered about among UXO from mortar to artillery shells.

When they found some suitable bits of range stuff, which from memory was nose cones of various ordnance, our gallant officers arranged them as targets and then unholstered their pistols and started firing at them.

They were very sharing officers as they let me and the other grunts fire off a fair few rounds at the same targets, but nowhere what the officers fired. I’m not sure that anyone hit anything they were aiming at, but it was a lot of fun.

#19

Using blast to set off a pressure mine is not always sucessful (the old British mine clearance explosive hose Python cleared 80% of blast susceptable mines in an 8 m wide gap to a certain depth (not sure of depth) it was supposed to be followed by a plough tank to clear any others, even then it was not 100% cleared.

just taking one mine family into account the British Bar Mine

Fuses

SI -single impulse
DI -Double impulse
ADDI- Anti Disturbance Double Impulse
FWAM (M) Full Width Attack Mine (Mechanical)
FWAM (E) Full Width Attack Mine (Electrical)

The main body is made of plastic with a metal plate on it to make it detectable to magnetic influence detectors

why have different types of fuses

To defeat various mine clearance devices whether they be plough/flail/rollers/explosive/hand

Never mind the magnetic influence mines that can be found on a modern battlefield.

A small note about clearing WW2 minefields my dad was in Libya in the early 60’s still clearing minefields as a member of the British Forces until they were requested to leave when political changes took place. These minefields were marked and quantities generally known (fields were layed and as the battle advanced or retreated mines were lifted and reused elsewhere so some fields contained less than expected as records were kept of layed fields but never ammended as mines were lifted for re use, both sides also used/lifted each others mines)

The only way to declare an area completly clear is by finger tip search and even then with a prodder you can only go down about 18" maximum

with mines being made out of Metal/plastic/bakalite/wood/cast explosive
numerous different types of initiation and effect
booby traps layed to catch the hand breaching teams

So many complain about the cost and time to clear but would be very reluctant to actually do it them selves

#20

So what could be used to make a fuel-air explosive? My understanding is an explosive gas that hugs the ground might do. Something cheep!

Of course they could use the Russian methods. Either march prisoners through the mines or just don’t tell your folks they are they and get them to run through them. Heartless, but most third world dictators are.

Deaf