Adolf Hitler, pros and cons

Which can be summarised as:
Poland evacuates the territory Germany wants immediately, even if the referendum isn’t for a year.
Germany will have the right of free transit through formerly Polish territory, no matter what the outcome of the referendum.
The “referendum” will give votes to those living there in 1918 - i.e. prior to the Versailles settlement, and ignoring any rights accrued to those who have lived there for the past 20 years.

Essentially Poland gives a load away to Germany that it was awarded by the Treaty of Versailles, and Germany gives nothing in return. That isn’t negotiation, it’s a highwayman giving an ultimatum. Poland declined to negotiate on this basis (hardly surprising), at which point Germany invaded.

And before you start spouting on about how unfair Versailles was, I suggest you read the text of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk. This is the treaty Germany dictated to the Soviet Union when it thought itself victorious, and probably ended any chance the Germans had of getting a reasonable peace from the western allies.

It means you’re a lazy idiot too incompetent to actually separate and answer separately the posts you’re trying to respond too…

Please see
http://www.hitler.org/artifacts/volkswagen/
http://www.volkswest.co.uk/beetle_history.html

Yeah my parents had the last model imported into the United States, and 1979 convertible…

You are truly ignorant, aren’t you ?

text of german proposal of August 29, 1939:
Proposal for a settlement of the Danzig-Corridor problem and the German-Polish minority question:

Oh, I’m the “ignorant” one? I thought you were the lying ****wit who wasted bandwidth with the meaningless shit regarding “negotiations” between Poland and Germany regarding Danzig and other assorted territories. But the fact has clearly sailed over your head (once again) that I implied that all negotiations with the Reich were fallible and hence meaningless since the Fuhrer was a lying **** as evidenced by the aborted Munich Accords…

So, instead of vilifying the Poles for refusing to negotiate, perhaps we should anoint them as the ones who were prophets when dealing with the Third Reich? But of course, a neofascist as yourself needs to grasp at straws to rationalize the genocide and warmongering of his Fuhrer. Doesn’t he?

Yeah, right before you faulted the Poles for not negotiating with Hitler, dummy…

Try to maintain some vague consistencies in your arguments…

@wittman111

I am wondering if you accidently nailed your flag to the wall with your link to the Hitler Historical Museum which purports to be just a factual place with no bias at all towards or against Hitler.

Unfortunately the links on it are mostly to Stormfront, a holocaust denial site and David Irving. Not exactly unbiased then.


popcorn.gif

Tankgeezer

You got any beer to go with the popcorn lol

And this? Really?

Oh, okay Neville Chamberlain. Is that from reading the tea leaves up Hitler’s *******?

People don’t realize this but once Britain and France declared war on Germany, independence of countries become irrelevant as Germany has no resources of it’s own to fight war and survive. It had to fight preventive war by first attacking France before Allies built up.

Um, actually “people” do realize this. Unlike you, we’ve read books on it and haven’t relied on the faux history recited to us by our weird, German-speaking uncle. And there was little thought about “preventative war(s)” nor preserving resources. The OKW simply went with a risky plan that was high risk, high reward. But that wasn’t the initial war-plan nor was anything premeditated by Hitler nor the general staff prior to the initiation of hostilities. There was no “plan” for a “quick war.” That’s the “Blitzkrieg myth” dispelled in recent literature…

Um, no, strawman, that’s quite a leap from my statement. Iraq was clearly in violation of the armistice negotiated after the first Gulf War and there had been an ongoing aerial guerrilla war since the Clinton Administration called “Desert Fox.” Saddam was in violation of numerous tenets of the peace accord. So no, no one can “just invade” any Middle Eastern country since the circumstances in Iraq were far from those of any other Middle Eastern country…

do look at Austro-Prussian relations during creation of Germany.

No. I don’t feel like it.

I forgot yesterday but here it goes:
Pg 48.
Unemployment in 1933 is six million and lets say in 1937 1 million. I think this is rather spectacular. Next GDP, pg 63:
1933 46 billion Reich marks and 1937 is 58 billion Reich marks. Rather spectacular don’t you think. On same table, as I already said, structure of GDP changed in a way military spending went up and local government and civilian spending went down ?

Yeah, except many of those blessed workers were treated as little more than slave laborers, especially those working on the Autobahn. Secondly, one can also argue that conscription was a pretty disingenuous way to combat the unemployment of young men. Yet, it was a major factor in the ‘jobs creation.’ Wasn’t it?

Ahh, you mean against rommel in Africa ?

That’s not really what I meant. But more to the point, what do you mean?

Maybe in 1941 but what about 1942 ???

I dunno. What about 1942? After Hitler unnecessarily claimed war on the U.S.?

I will - there is fine description in Hitler/s warriors by Guido Knopp. And book is really against Hitler, with justification I might say.

Okay, cite the text and answer the question I asked!

If figure of 90 million disturbs you so much how about this:
http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

Now if we extrapolate trend to say.1941 there would be some 82 million Germans in Germany, that is without emigration all over Europe.

You mean including Austrians and anyone else that might sort of have a vaguely German sounding name? Yeah, hardly a rock to build ones’ war planning on! But many were still not truly “German.”

that indeed is a pity. Would have been biggest export good on top of all that GDP:)

Of course, but then we’d have angry German men…

This was typo. Meant 1935 and 1934.

Fine, but then again, you’re crediting Hitler for what the Wiemar Republic started…

I did … figures and facts. Opinion I can form of my own.

But you cannot misrepresent the fundamental thesis of Tooze by quoting him out-of-context nor posting sophistry, which you are somewhat guilty of doing actually…

Most certainly…

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Ah a show popcorn and beer, almost perfect evening relaxation.

it seems ubelievable to me, that some people are still trying to exculpate the things hitler did… even if I’m fed up with this way of still being indicted just because of being German, but it is a fact, that Hitler and his paladines brought devastation over europe.

This may be a case of different perspectives.

From my perspective as a non-German born a few years after WWII in a nation which was one of the Allies against Germany (or more accurately the Nazis who hijacked Germany for their own purposes), neither I nor anyone I know considers that current Germans bear any ‘war guilt’. That notion went out a long time ago, probably in the 1960s, the 1970s at the latest.

However, I can understand how a German might be sensitive to the recurrent references to the Nazis, the Holocaust, etc when coupled with references to Germany and Germans, but in my experience those references are limited to events up to about 1945.

It’s a different issue with Japan, which has consistently refused to accept its own war guilt in any meaningful sense by Western (or Japanese - the outbreak of ritual suicides would have had a significant impact on the population until a couple of decades ago) and particularly Chinese standards.

If anything, I think that Germany might have gone too far in its repudiation of its past, but that’s a lot better than the denial of its past that is entrenched in Japan.

As for the Italians? Well, they didn’t really do anything all that bad and they didn’t really do all that much of great significance to the war in general (even if they did do some things in various land and sea encounters with the Allies which contradict the common view of them as always not very good), and they made great prisoners of war in the Allied countries to which they were sent as farm labourers etc, to the extent that after the war many of them were sponsored as immigrants by their former employers. There’s a lot to be said for the Italians in WWII as by far the least bad Axis power. Which is probably why they didn’t benefit like the Germans and Japanese from post-war Allied investment etc which made Germany and Japan major economies.

Grenadier

I lived in Germany for 16 years and in that time I most definately learnt that most of those that wish to place Hitler on a pedestal are not German.

I have met more neo nazis from the UK, USA and former Eastern Bloc countries than German. Wonder if it was due to the de-nazification that was done and the education received in German schools.

And the most bizarre of all is neo-Nazis in Israel, apparently among immigrant Russians with some Jewish descent. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-nightmare-homegrown-neonazis-in-the-holy-land-396392.html

Grenadier, Like leccy in the past I lived in your wonderful country for several years, in fact I was born there! I have a great fondness for the Germans and I can imagine you’re getting quite fed up with being given grief over something that happend many years ago. At school I was often given grief for the war as I was born in Germany and was therefore German in their eyes. You’ll always find idiots everywhere, nicht war? :smiley:

Certainly the Poles were no prophets when dealing with Churchill and Roosevelt who sold them to the russians, covering the Katyn massacre of 20.000 polish officers in hands of the Bolshevik executioners and blackmailing and forcing the polish government in exile to handle Stalin the eastern part of Poland as was revealed by a BBC documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reMFluRR2cc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fnKL...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq9pm...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Xbs...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlJco...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxDYO...eature=related

Horst :
I don’t recall Nickdfresh’s statement including Allied leaders, only the third Reich. Is distraction the best you have to offer? The thread specifies Hitler, not Stalin, nor Churchill, nor Roosevelt,nor anyone else. Just hitler himself. If you can’t keep to the topic, then just keep the voices in your head to yourself.

Nice deflection. But Hitler sold Poland to the Soviets when the Non-Aggression Pact. What other choice did they have since the Red Army was flooding in from the East?

…covering the Katyn massacre of 20.000 polish officers in hands of the Bolshevik executioners

How did they “cover” the Katyn Massacre? I think everyone assumed it was the Nazi regime that was the culprit since they seemed remarkably efficient at killing large numbers of Poles…anyway, they didn’t control the massacre site and could not conducted any sort of investigation…

…and blackmailing and forcing the polish government in exile to handle Stalin the eastern part of Poland as was revealed by a BBC documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reMFluRR2cc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fnKL...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq9pm...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Xbs...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlJco...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxDYO...eature=related

I haven’t seen the documentary. But what sort of alternatives would a gov’t in exile have regarding territories they no longer control?

Hitler sold Poland?!!:mrgreen:
All time i thought Hitler has “reserved” Poland for Reich:) All what STalin might to dream about is the Western Ukraine and Bessarabia…

How did they “cover” the Katyn Massacre? I think everyone assumed it was the Nazi regime that was the culprit since they seemed remarkably efficient at killing large numbers of Poles…anyway, they didn’t control the massacre site and could not conducted any sort of investigation…

No they exactly “covered” coz they ignored the London polish govenment who know for sure it was NKVD during the Nurenberg trial.

Sure the Rosevelt and Church had to agree with Stalin coz the “eastern poland” had been almost totally cleared out from poles by…local nationalists within 1943-44. BTW Poles after themself was not been pissed on Stalin coz they got a rich pieces of former Prussia - Upper Silezia and Pomerania.Did the BBC reveal such a Stalin-Polish crime?