Well it was war.Did you expect to send them flowers or some chocolates maybe?
Kill or be killed.
If it is any consolation to you dear chevan,Soviet troops wiped out an entire regiment of the Charlemagne in Pomerania.
kamehouse, i do respect all the peoples , who died in that infamous war, fighting the Nazis.
And i know about brave fight of French resistence and their contribution to a victory.
But unfortinatelly , the ONLY 20 000 of frenchs did actively resisted to occupants, while the REST millions felt good, and survived that war with more or less comfort.
And i really wonder when some peoples calls the France as “Major Ally”.Their contribution to war was such unsignificant that many peoples from Britain, America and Canada had too lose their lives to save and liberate that France.
The Poland was probably more importaint ally of Allies than the France .And becouse i do respect all the nation who fought, i would like the to put Poland on that honorable place.
As for Hiwis, yes you right the figure of peoples in USSR were ready to colloborate with occupants for whatever reasons. But at the same time the REST 90% of population was in hell , firgthing with occupants.
Unlike 90% of frenches
What to hell were they doing in Pomerania?
Defended France?No?
What was the “Major Ally” doing here while Allies died in France , liberating that country?
Well, there’s an Italian fascist there as well…
And many things happened in 1968, smelly hippies being predominant…
and French fascist as well;)
And many things happened in 1968, smelly hippies being predominant…
How did you learn their smell?
I have no idea where you are getting the “20,000” figure from, but it is clearly erroneous. The estimates of the French Resistance, or Maquis, are upwards of 200,000 and as high as 400,000 if one counts passive resistance, part time fighters, and those that provided other types of aid to the Maquis.
I would say that France was declared a Major Ally mainly because of its history. It was a Major Ally in WW1, and it was a nemesis of Germany.
So the official statement that Nazi Germany was - among the others - defeated by France, probably had Propaganda motivations.
Also, don’t forget France’s geopolitical significance. After its liberation it still had some major colonies, and was quick to rebuilt its army which was - if I’m not mistaken - actually the world’s biggest army before WW2.
(This was one of the reasons why Britain was caught somewhat with its pants down in 1940 - they expected the French to at least give the Germans a serious run for their money, allowing the British war machinery to build up steam)
So by including France in the ‘Insider’s Circle’ as you could call it, the Allies tried to both humiliate Germany and spare France from total humiliation in order to keep up good relations with them.
EDIT:
nickdfresh, what time period are you talking about, because that might be critical. I recently saw a documentary about the French Resistance, and though I can’t recall the exact numbers, they mentioned that the Resistance was almost ridiculously powerless until D-Day, and that the numbers slowly grew whenever the Allies came closer to particular cities, though the French like to claim that the resistance was extremely huge all throughout the occupation, which is simply not true.
Nope, Petain was busy polishing his uniform at that point…
How did you learn their smell?
Olive oil and wine are not unpleasant scents. But the garlic was too potent…
He’s very ripe here indeed and I can still smell him today:
It’s also very easy to beat up on the French. But I think we’ll recall that any nation nation bordering Germany was pretty much fucked militarily in WWII. For instance, only time and space saved the USSR, and they had much better weapons and doctrine than even the French did!
Every bordering nation except Switzerland. The Nazi-Upper Class was smart enough to protect its neutrality so they could hide all their loot there in case their Empire would collapse again (which it did, as we all know). 
Many people, including Nazi-Hunters, have since tried to get the Swiss bankers to open the accounts of famous Nazis, but they’ve remained stubborn…
I’m still amazed at how Spain managed to stay out of it all. It’s obvious Hitler didn’t attack because he was favorable towards Franco, but how did they manage to avoid getting pulled in?!
Yes this may be true, but when things get nasty survival is the only thing that counts. I’m sure many Frenchman wanted to resist the Nazi occupation but equally didn’t want to risk their families. I have the luxury of living in a country that has no living memory of ever being occupied by a foreign power (channel islands and colonies aside). However, no matter how much patriotic chest beating about never surrendering I would wager that if it did happen in the UK you’d probably get a similiar situation as in France in WW2 (apart from the Hereford hooligans who would bloody love it).
I have little time for French soldiers who joined SS units and fought the Allies, however, I must admit to feeling some sympathy for the ordinary French civilians, it can’t have been easy wieghing up the risk to the lives of their family against France’s freedom.
I’m not calling them cowards for not having a ‘2 million strong resistance’ (exaggerated). But I also don’t like that they tend to act as if they did.
Thats because DeGualle said that everyone was in the resistance. It would have been very unhealthy for the country coming out of a massivley destructive war to start going round settling old scores and dividing the nation between those who did and those who didn’t resist. It’s their little fanatasy that lets them carry on without letting recriminations tearing their country apart. Not entirely right, but entirely pragmatic.
Germany is still busy settling old scores… :neutral:
And you’re right. It’s annoying, people start to get fed up and as long as that BS doesn’t end, German self-esteem is in the cellar…
And it didn’t help being divided for forty odd years!
Very true, especially with those forty odd years being the Cold War, and the people who got reunited were each subject to strong propaganda against the others side for years…
I’ve read it in one book,
Funny enough that we still don’t know the figure of frenche resistense during the Vichys rule.
Probably some peoples in France dont wish to determine it;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance
After the landings in Normandy and Provence, resistance combatants were organized more formally into units known as the French Forces of the Interior (FFI). Estimated to have a strength of 100,000 in June 1944, the FFI grew rapidly, doubling by the following month and reaching 400,000 in October of that year.[8] Although the amalgamation of the FFI was in some cases fraught with political difficulty, it was ultimately successful and allowed France to re-establish a reasonably large army of 1.2 million men by VE Day in May 1945.[9]
100 000 in june of 1944. When Germany retreated and everybody know that war soon be over.
So we might to conclude that in 1941-42 there were no more 20 000
This is a …nothing.
The only Ukraine has about 500 000 in mid 1943.
Sure when Allies has realised the France, the peopels joined to" victor’s company"
But problem is , befor the 1944 , the france resistense hardly existed at all, in that scale that usially has been told.
I fully agree.
Actuly there has been born the myth about resistense. It was pragmatic, but problem is that peoples who really fought and died have been humilated by the whom were colloborated or ignored the occupants.
Not everybody was a big fan of communism,most of the “Charlemagne” weren’t in any case.One of the clause to volunteer in the SS was that the French wouldn’t fight western allies and especially not the Free French.It was composed of soldiers who wanted to redeem themselves from their defeat in 1940 (the LVF) and some hardened fascists who hated the bolsheviks(SS-Sturmbrigade Frankreich).When both units were joined to form Charlemagne,many problems occured as they had both different ideologies but the whole were against the threat of a communist europe.
As for what they were doing in Berlin,they had the choice to return to France and get shot as traitors(General Leclerc famously shot 11 French SS) or to go to Berlin for their last stand.
Very difficult choice I’d say.
Well, then what was the British excuse for being “caught with their pants down” as they were also handily defeated in France? In many respects their doctrine was superior to the French one and the BEF was better trained and more professional as a whole. What was their plan for the battle? It was the same as the French one, fight a holding action (if and when if became necessary). Then take the offensive with superior armies in perhaps the Spring of 1941 as the French and the British correctly believed that they had a dilemma of a severe tactical disadvantage to the Germans, and a huge strategic advantage in the form of industry and raw materials. But the Germans had TWICE the male birthrate than France making any bloody battle of attrition a sure defeat for France while Gamelin was aware the Germans had a much better trained, battle hardened army and doctrine that was ideally suited for a short war. Indeed, Hitler’s lifeline was trade with the Soviet Union during the Phony War and the Battle for France…
I think it is often forgotten that the Allies were in a good position if they could postpone the battle and strangle Germany economically, but also knew they were far from ready to take sustained offensive action against a technically superior, far more mobile enemy. In ‘hindsight,’ we tend to forget what a real dangerous gamble that Operation Fall Gelb and Fall Rot were at the time. But ultimately the springing into Belgium and the inability for the French and BEF to sustain themselves in battle in the same time and space as the Heer is what did them in.
So by including France in the ‘Insider’s Circle’ as you could call it, the Allies tried to both humiliate Germany and spare France from total humiliation in order to keep up good relations with them.
By including France, the Allies were merely reflecting their postwar needs for a strong France contributing to European stability as Germany would not have another Army until 1954!
EDIT:
nickdfresh, what time period are you talking about, because that might be critical. I recently saw a documentary about the French Resistance, and though I can’t recall the exact numbers, they mentioned that the Resistance was almost ridiculously powerless until D-Day, and that the numbers slowly grew whenever the Allies came closer to particular cities, though the French like to claim that the resistance was extremely huge all throughout the occupation, which is simply not true.
Define “powerless.” Just about all resistance and partisan units were not all that effective at seriously challenging German control under occupations. The Yugoslavs were perhaps the closest to a real problem for the Germans. But the idea of the British SOE (and later OSS) to “set Europe afire” with various resistance units was largely mythical to begin with and most partisans/resistance fighters were largely useless against occupation forces and have been politically exaggerated in nearly all countries since. The French Resistance was far from omnipotent, but in the end their most effective role was to serve as a cadre of intelligence agents for the Western Allies and they did so excellently and by all accounts were worth several divisions of Allied soldiers and saved the lives of the actual ones fighting in Normandy. It was of course found that active resistance led to harsh reprisals such as summary hostage executions of civilians. So, obviously it was smartest to stockpile weapons and organized units and wait for the opportunity of a mass uprising where a German Army would be too busy to fucking murder everybody in retaliation…