Allied ≠ Russians?

Yes well, I have yet to see much evidence that the French as a whole are acting as they had a huge resistance since you’ll notice that there aren’t a lot of French posters on WWII message boards…

I think you also fail to take into account that the French had their own (very much illegal, fascist) Vichy militia for hunting the Resistance (which is far more shameful than the Franco-SS units to me) and the War as very much a civil one for them as the very legality of the French Resistance was an open question as the French gov’t signed an armistice --making their mass appeal very much more sticky early on. And it also took a little while for the full impact of economic rape of the German occupation to set in…

I think you also need to recognize that France still had as many as two million of its young, male population interned as POWs for most of the War. And it was implied that they could potentially be used as execution hostages for reprisals…

We can’t “conclude” anything as any resistance takes time to organize. The early French resistance was probably wiped out many times over, and as my previous post states, a lot of the French male population was in the Vichy military, still interned as POWs, abroad fighting with the Free Forces, or being worked to death in German factories (later on)…

As far as the Ukraine partisan statistics, that seems a tad high seeing as we could make the argument that many Ukrainians were either collaborating with the German occupation (initially), were members of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and were fighting both the Heer and the Red Army/NKVD…

We can also make the argument that the Soviet partisans contribution to the defeat of the German invasion has been exaggerated for post War political purposes and that they never really seriously challenged the German supply lines…

True, I guess you’ll have to take my word for it. I’ve had many, sometimes heated, sometimes neutral, discussions with French about their and their resistance’s role in WW2. And the general French sentiment I experienced was that of "France never backed down, they were backstabbed by their Government (sound familiar?), and that the French Resistance was the biggest and most powerful Resistance of them all… :neutral:
(Of course the opinions still varied from person to person)

It’s hard to say they didn’t back down as they did by and large. But there was a segment of the French gov’t that wanted to continue the War from the colonies and the French PM Reynaud was thrown to the Germans for advocating this…

But it isn’t an easy nor cut and dry question. The French did suffer fairly numerous casualties in the War and those Frenchmen that did resist did so knowing that they were effectively losing everything and were dead men, and women, walking…

But as I said, no resistance movements were militarily effective against a standing army unless they were being supported by an advancing one…

It does seem strange that a country that fought so relentlessly against Germany from 1914-1918 would fall so easily and collaborate with them in the 1940s. The French determination seems similar to that of the Soviets in 1941-45. French casualties were higher than those of the entire British empire despite France having a smaller population than Great Britain alone. In fact, out of the major allied combatants, France may have suffered the highest percentage killed relative to population.

How can yo know what which they were a fans?
Are you going to say they weren’t fan’s of communist and fought for Pomerainai, while the Nacism terrorised their own country - France?
So they were the BIG fans of Nacism then.

One of the clause to volunteer in the SS was that the French wouldn’t fight western allies and especially not the Free French.

Yes, exaclty such the condition was in the East . When the Grmans formed the ROA- they said , you will not fight with Russian.
What does it change?
SO the ROA was moved into Yugoslavia , to participate in “pacification compain” agains local polulation, commiting the crimes.
They fought for Nacism, whatever they try to say in justification.

It was composed of soldiers who wanted to redeem themselves from their defeat in 1940 (the LVF) and some hardened fascists who hated the bolsheviks(SS-Sturmbrigade Frankreich).When both units were joined to form Charlemagne,many problems occured as they had both different ideologies but the whole were against the threat of a communist europe.

They hated the bolshevics or hated the Jews and Slavs?Who in fact was the SAME in Nazis ppropogand.
Hardly you may prove the otherwise now.
It’s seems for me that REALITY was much more SIMPLE.
The groups of sadist, fanatical racist, jews-haters and simply scums were joined together in “honorable aim to Defend the Europe from Mongol’s hordes, leading the JEwish commissars”.:)( Exaclty in such term it was told )
While the Allies lost their lives , saving and liberating France and Belgium.

As for what they were doing in Berlin,they had the choice to return to France and get shot as traitors(General Leclerc famously shot 11 French SS) or to go to Berlin for their last stand.
Very difficult choice I’d say.

Hardly difficult , if not to idealize them.
They had no choice indeed.
They were going to use the last chance to save their ass, moving to the Berlin , in hope to surrender to Americans or Brits( they didn’t know that Allies had the agreement to pass all the POWs who fought in East to Soviet hands.Besides the Allies didn’t plan to assault the BErlin)
I’ve read that many of surrvived SS colloborators in Berlin , hided their SS tattoo , posing themself as “Hiwi or f French POWs”, trying to escape to American zone.
Sure n France they would have no any choice to survive.But NKVD for the first didn’t know exaclty how to recognize the Waffen-SS vets, so many of them has escaped to USA or Canada.

The Frence resistense wasn’t wiped out at all, coz it didn’t cased the serious troubles for GErmans in Visy’s france.
The CHech resistance was wiped out.This is true.Germans has organized the serious compain to eliminate the leader of resistense after killing of German governor.
Frence resistence was rather illusion.( i.e. it was , but there were more supporters then real fighters).
There were no a serious acts or diversion till the most mid 1944.
Even the resistence of Norvay and Dutch was more usefull for allies than the frence one.

As far as the Ukraine partisan statistics, that seems a tad high seeing as we could make the argument that many Ukrainians were either collaborating with the German occupation (initially), were members of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and were fighting both the Heer and the Red Army/NKVD…

True in Ukarian the essential part of population were ACTIVELY fighting against occupants- both the GErman and Soviets( and some diehards even agains Poles;))
The UPA start to orginice the anti-german actions from most beginning of occupation in 1941.
Unkile in the France.

We can also make the argument that the Soviet partisans contribution to the defeat of the German invasion has been exaggerated for post War political purposes and that they never really seriously challenged the German supply lines…

You have absolutly no point here, coz even General Manstain has wrote in his memours that during the first days of Kursk battle the Germans felt the serious problems with railway supplies. When Ukraine resistance simultaneitly started the railway’s war.Germans even were forced to distract the Wermacht troops to defend the lines and to use it in contr-partisan operations.
I strongly doubt, Nick , that Mainstan will exagger the Soviet political purposes.
Also during the 1944 offenciseve ( operation Bagration) when the Group Armies Centre was finally destroyed the belorussian partisans actively have helped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration#Operations_Rail_War_and_Concert

The first phase of Operation Bagration involved the many partisan formations in the Belorussian SSR, which were instructed to restart their campaigns of targeting railways and communications behind German lines. From 19 June, large numbers of explosive charges were placed on rail tracks, and though many were cleared, they had a significant disruptive effect. The partisans would also be used to mop up encircled German forces once the breakthrough and exploitation phases of the operation were completed.

Errmm…no i’m sorry that just isn’t true. Until recently Britain has always had a smaller population than France.

Back to this by Kamehouse

Not everybody was a big fan of communism,most of the “Charlemagne” weren’t in any case.One of the clause to volunteer in the SS was that the French wouldn’t fight western allies and especially not the Free French.It was composed of soldiers who wanted to redeem themselves from their defeat in 1940 (the LVF) and some hardened fascists who hated the bolsheviks(SS-Sturmbrigade Frankreich).When both units were joined to form Charlemagne,many problems occured as they had both different ideologies but the whole were against the threat of a communist europe.

There’s being anti-communist and then there’s siding up with the guys who’ve just occupied your country, putting on their uniforms and killing people on their behest. Also wanting to redeem one’s self for 1940 defeat, joining the guys who gave you a good hiding is hardly the way to do it.

Um, the Gestapo and Abwehr did take them seriously. For the most part, the French Resistance didn’t operate against Vichy until later. The Vichy also composed an illegal militia called the Milice apart from the Vichy military and regular police which numbered about 30,000 at its height. If the French Resistance didn’t exist, then why did they turn to such desperate and ruthless measures designed to counter the Maqui as much of the French regular police were sympathetic to them?

It was in fact the French that pioneered the use of a clandestine cellular structure to counter penetration by the enemy security forces…

The CHech resistance was wiped out.This is true.Germans has organized the serious compain to eliminate the leader of resistense after killing of German governor.

The men who killed Reinhardt Heydrich were actually British trained, Czech born SAS commandos inserted into Prague. The Germans had had a largely soft occupation in Czechoslovakia until the harsh reprisals set in motion by Heydrich’s assassination and the courageous refusal to surrender of the team that fought to the death in a Prague church and inflicted heavy casualties on the SS afterward began to separate the Czechs from the German occupation gov’t. This was no small part of the British plan…

Frence resistence was rather illusion.( i.e. it was , but there were more supporters then real fighters).

“Illusion” is a poor choice of words. They did in fact exist, even if they represented an overall 1% of the French population. Again, the numbers of potential resisters was reduced due to the French POWs and the Free French forces fighting abroad who were themselves resistors. And the very real open question as to their relation to what the French gov’t had become…

There were no a serious acts or diversion till the most mid 1944.
Even the resistence of Norvay and Dutch was more usefull for allies than the frence one.

But there were. The most effective acts were those of intelligence agents providing London the order of battle of German units. The ideal that the odd assassination of German officers or of blowing up a truck is going to have much of an impact was shown to be silly. There were numerous acts followed by harsh reprisals…

And the Dutch Resistance was penetrated by Abwehr early on I believe and betrayed much information, and consequently Allied lives, to the Germans. The Norwegians were mainly expatriates trained and under the command of the British SOE and SAS…

True in Ukarian the essential part of population were ACTIVELY fighting against occupants- both the GErman and Soviets( and some diehards even agains Poles;))
The UPA start to orginice the anti-german actions from most beginning of occupation in 1941.
Unkile in the France.

There were in fact mostly members of the French military and police initially that formed resistance movements. Their numbers were not great, but they were there. Keep in mind that they would have had to defy and ignore orders to lay down their arms as the Vichy gov’t was supposedly the legal successor to the Third Republic. This contrasts the Ukraine and even Russia where the central gov’t was still in power and had not made any separate peace with the Germans, even though some would say Stalin was inclined to do so after the shocking defeats in the opening days of Barbarossa…

You have absolutly no point here, coz even General Manstain has wrote in his memours that during the first days of Kursk battle the Germans felt the serious problems with railway supplies. When Ukraine resistance simultaneitly started the railway’s war.Germans even were forced to distract the Wermacht troops to defend the lines and to use it in contr-partisan operations.
I strongly doubt, Nick , that Mainstan will exagger the Soviet political purposes.
Also during the 1944 offenciseve ( operation Bagration) when the Group Armies Centre was finally destroyed the belorussian partisans actively have helped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration#Operations_Rail_War_and_Concert

Ahhh! :smiley: But I DO have a point, as you ignored my statement that resistance and partisan units were truly effective only when used in conjunction with large conventional armies, generally just prior to, or at the beginning of, an attack. Your link shows that Soviet partisans were used in much the same manner as the French Resistance was during the Normandy Invasion on D-Day. They were dormant somewhat until they activated to cut railway and communications links and directly ambush Heer and SS units on their way to the front. There is NO argument contrary to the French Resistance having anything but a dramatic impact on the Normandy battle and reducing Allied casualties both through their intelligence surveying activities for the years prior to, and their active partisan activities at, the start of the battle…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(World_War_II)#Role

There are virtually no instances in WWII where Partisans can be shown to have had a major effect in direct contact with an enemy army (without working in conjunction of a large conventional ally) save for perhaps Tito’s partisans. There were major uprisings in France apart from the D-Day landings where units of the Maquis took on regular SS and Heer units and were annihilated with little gain. What was the point?

palm slapping forehead
I don’t even know where to start.
As much as you must know about Russian struggle during WW2,you base your facts on “I read” or some wiki stubs which show you don’t have a single clue about the French joining the German army.
I suggest you to read either Robert Forbes"For Europe,the French volunteers of the waffen-SS" or “Hitler’s Gauls” by Jonathan Triggs.I would also recommend Jean Mabire’s “mourir a Berlin” and "la division Charlemagne"but they are written in French so It won’t be much help to you.
When you’ll have a bit more insight on the subject ,I’ll be more than happy to discuss it with you.
Until then there is no much point to carry on this sterile posting and counter posting.
As for how some French would want to join the German army here’s a simple sentence:the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend.
This works both ways of course,you would find a high concentration of communists in the French resistance as you would find some French anti-communists in the German army.If the Americans or the British would have been against Russia ,roles would have been inverted but that’s a what if scenario and I am not very good at it.
On that gentlemen I wish a good day.:slight_smile:

I will try to find all that literature, promise you, that you’ve mentioned, unless it avialable in english.
You knowledge is wide in this field,as i see.
But i have to notice , the AL memours in the world don’t help to the one to learn the true,unless he can’t use a his logic and mind.
The enemy of my enemy , works effective,but somethines , you have to choose the “friends”.
As for those ugly colloborators who fought for Nazism( far from their native motheland) while their own countlry has been oppressed by the same nacism.
And i don’t relly care about their “motivation”.
I may understand the German SS who in fact fought and died for his land( at least it was motivated and understable)
But , i never buy the ideology of ugly france/russian/european or whatever colloborators who fought for occupants.
It’s just a simple. they all are traitors.

This works both ways of course,you would find a high concentration of communists in the French resistance as you would find some French anti-communists in the German army.If the Americans or the British would have been against Russia ,roles would have been inverted but that’s a what if scenario and I am not very good at it.
On that gentlemen I wish a good day.:slight_smile:

I know about Communist roots of French resistance.The shame that MOSTLY communists in France fought agains occupants.The others were waiting.
BTW did you know that some of France volunteres fought in …red Army.
And fought wery well.see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandie-Niemen
They fought not for communism but against their real enemy.And avenged for humiliation of 40’s pretty well.
Unlike those moral-ugly “sharlenamg volunteers”.

Military effect can take forms other than a battlefield win.

Tying down occupation troops in insurgent areas when those troops could have been better employed at or, given that occupying troops were often second rate troops, at least close to the front had a military effect at the front, both by the absence of those troops and the diversion of resources to their management and supply in occupied areas.

Given that a small number of partisans could tie down a much larger occupation force, without necessarily coming into direct battle contact with the occupier but by concentrating on things such as sabotaging the enemy’s communications and transport, it could have an effect out of all proportion to the numbers of partisans employed.

I can’t think of any argument to contradict that.

Exactly mate.
Keep in mind also that in the East the line of supplies were a THOUSAND killometres length , the even relatively small battalion of partisans might make it unfunctional, if the occupants will not guard the ENTIRE line( that is technically impossible).
So there were the situation when the 20-30 partisans migh effectively blocked whole a reilway throug the forests, attacking in different places along the way.
Even 1000 of guard troops could stop them , coz partisan as attacking side ALWAYS have the tactical advantage.This is well known as “Partisan warfare”.
Say Tito with his partisans effectively blocked the entire 11 divisions in Yugoslkavia, tieding them out of active combat in Italy.
Sure the other side of medal was an cruel “contr-partisan operations”( that often hardly differed from genocide), executed by SS and police battalions.
The Partisans usially survived but lockal population suffered a much deathrate.

I don’t think soldiers fighting for another “country” is so surprising. Just because two people come from different geographic regions does not mean they can’t have similar interests and similar personality traits. Also, someone might find the women in a foreign country to be more attractive than those in their own country to give one example. This seems like a perfectly legitimate reason for switching sides.

So true!
It’s like Americans liking our Canadian beer over their own watered down beer. It’s not rocket science! It’s very easy to see why one would prefer something of a foreign country over one’s own. I firmly believe that if Canada ever stopped selling beer to the Americans, that America would Annex Canada or invade our country and take it over. thats a Fact!

Well, they might not react quite that harshly. They’d probably leave out Quebec. Nobody wants that, anyway :mrgreen:

My thoughts are based on John Keegan’s writing. Unfortunately, I do not have the book here in this state, but in his overview of the subject, he basically states that outside of Yugoslavia, there simply wasn’t a huge impact of resistance/partisan movements operating without the support, and in conjunction with, large conventional armies. German soldiers were needed to occupy France and the low countries for instance whether they had guerrilla cells or not. We might argue that some intelligence assets were sapped as the Gestapo and Abwehr had to infiltrate/track etc. insurgents. But the total numbers of troops tied down was never really that significant and the SOE mantra of setting Europe on fire never really materialized…

Soldiers fighting for another country that invaded and occupied theirs are traitors, surprising of not. And the biggest traitors of all were those that policed their own countrymen for the Nazis, like the Milice…

According to the census figures for 1911 available for Great Britain and France, Great Britains population was larger. I believe in those days Ireland was still considered part of Britain which increased the population somewhat. However, even if we exclude Ireland, Great Britain’s population still is a bit larger. France was at around 39.2 million, Britain at about 40.6 million if Ireland is excluded as I recall.