Argentinian Military

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#121

From what i’ve heard the Pucara was a devestatingly effective ground attack aircraft, although a bit weak in air to air.

The Brits saw it as such a threat in the Falklands that the Pebble Island base of the Pucaras were bestowed the rare honour of having a whole SAS squadron (D Sqn i think) and assorted extras such as the NGO parties of 29 Cdo RA “visit” them one night to ensure they wouldn’t pose a threat to the British ground forces.

As far as i can recall there were no human casualties, as the SAS ran around the airfield blowing up aircraft with bombs just as they had done in the desert in WW2 at their formation.

A few interesting pictures, (not meant to wind you up Erwin).

This one was obviously destroyed by either bombs, rockets or gun fire.

This one is strange, it looks to me like some one has tipped it up on end!! Maybe the raiding party ran out of ammo!!!

This is the description for the above painting…

D squadron 22 SAS, made their way to the Argentinian landing strip where they proceeded to destroy 11 enemy aircraft with demolition charges, 66mm rockets and small arms. The destruction of these enemy aircraft, among them Paccaras, most certainly saved many lives among the Task Force and proved a valuable morale booster at the same time.

#122

Panzerknacker, was the Commando produced by FN, under licence or by a commercial firm ?

It was produced by FM, the goverment firearms factory.

#123

Not keyboard - brain fart(Mine, not you :stuck_out_tongue: ).
The rear sight on the 50.63 is different as well with a sloped back, rather than matching the ears on the front sight.

#124

Good shot Topor,thanks :smiley:

A few interesting pictures, (not meant to wind you up Erwin).

lol,ok.

The pucara for me wasn’t a great plane,apart from unneffective,it also wasn’t the most used plane during the falklands/malvinas war.

#125

The IA-58 was a very good plane…doing his business, wich is not a frontal attack against a Task force of misilistic warships.

Even a torpedo armed version was tested.

#126

The Pucará was only a good plane at the COIN role, as it was made for. It wasn’t apt to be used as CAS fighting against to one of the most powerfull armed forces from all over the world. No one of the 24 Pucarás moved to the Malvinas came back to the continent.

The Pucará hadn’t the proper technologies and weapons to be a potential CAS aircraft. Neither have its now, in 2005. The Pucará must be sustituted now, as the most of the air force aircrafts.

The Pucará with Torpedos was tried tu put in practice in order to use it agaisnt the improvised pier and ships on San Carlos. The non-deep waters of San Carlos and the little space to maneuver made the IA-58 an special plane to be used from the islands, its low speed could be better than a quickly attack from the IAI Mirage V “Daggers” or the A-4 Skyhawks.
The project finished with the war, the last days of June 1982.

#127

The Pucará hadn’t the proper technologies and weapons to be a potential CAS aircraft. Neither have its now, in 2005. The Pucará must be sustituted now, as the most of the air force aircrafts.

Well…yeah, I have to agree with you , but I think there is still a gap for this nice aircraft for CAS in the low intensity conflicts.

Improved versions:

IA-58B:

This aircraft used two Defa 553 30 mm gun instead the 20 mm HS-804.
As result the lower fuselage presented a very prominent bulge to allow the chamber of this revolver-cannon.
3 aircraft completed.

IA-58C

Very improved version, single place ( the front cockpit was eliminated).
Increased pilot and fuel armor. The nose added a single 30 mm Defa 553 gun

The fixed weaponry now is : 4 x 7,62 mm with 900 rpg, 2x 20 mm with 270 prg and 1 x 30mm with 170 rpg. The total rate of fire is around 7000 rpm.


Equipped with ECM, HUD and marginal pilons for Matra Magic AAM and Martin Pescador air to ground missiles.

#128

A plan that is good at COIN is actually a good ground attack aircraft, as that is what a COIN aircraft would mainly do.

The real problem is when the insurgents have anti aircraft capabilities!!!

#129

I repeat, the IA-58 never had a real capability as a CAS aircraft.

Only the IA-58C would was a considerable weapon (although its horrible appearence), with the possibility of using smart missiles, AA Magic and AS Martín Pescador argentine-made.

Now the variable IA-58D is practically an overhaull to the fleet near of 30 of IA-58A of the Argentine Air Force. At first, the IA-58D would was a fantastic upgrade, with new avionics, new equipments, digitalized screens, smart weapons (aa AIM-9 Sidewinder, as AS-25 argentine-made, laser guided bombs FAS-850 argentine made), rwr/jamming/chaff/flare joint system… but all of we know what happens here with this left-ideas government…


There’s a little pic from Lockheed Argentina, where the Pucarás are being overhaulled/upgraded (take the word as you like…)

#130

What is a “real” capability as a CAS aircraft???

Bear in mind, CAS = Close Air Support.

Doesn’t specify how or for what! :slight_smile:

I don’t see why the Pucara couldn’t fill that role perfectly in a low-intensity battlefield. Armoured warfare and you’re probably going to find too many threats for it to operate safely. But the same is true of many CAS aircraft. But against light infantry formations, something like that is probably going to do as good a job as a CAS helicopter, say.

The two seater will also be useful as a FAC aircraft, I shouldn’t wonder, providing support to the troops on the ground by calling in strikes by fast-jets for those harder targets that need PGM.

Imagine if they had been able to be used properly in the Falklands. Yes, going up against targets around San Carlos would have been suicide, but I think a lot of the battles would have been fought away from any Rapier batteries, and the most you’d have to worry about would be GPMG and SLR fire, and employing the right tactics would mitigate that somewhat.

Imagine how different the battle would be if they’d used those Pucaras with their dumb bombs and/or rockets, and machine guns, to making swipes at UK artillery and mortar positions? There weren’t enough Sea Harriers to cover everywhere at once, and I somehow don’t see how they had sufficient helicopter lift or suitable land routes to get Rapiers to everywhere the troops were an. Someone might know better, but I just can’t see it somehow.

In short - the conditions were as good as they’d ever be for an aircraft like the Pucara to operate in the CAS role, and the British clearly felt so too and went after them at their base rather than take their chances with them over the troops heads.

#131

Almost any offensive ac can do CAS, and as Festy pointed out the Pucara, in the right circumstances could and can do CAS. Theres not really much call for airborne FAC today as ground FAC can laser designate etc, but its not a bad premise.

I would think that in a low intensity, low AA threat environment the Pucara would still be a good choice, lower speed, longer loiter etc…

#132

Airborne FAC are surely more replaced by avionics on the fast jets themselves rather than simply ground FAC’s with designators. After all, from the ground you need line of sight to designate targets. I guess GPS, AWACS, JSTARS (or soon ASTOR if you’re British), rapid processing of recce data, and of course the dreaded network centric warfare, all play a large role in doing away with the airborne FAC role.

And as for prop planes doing CAS… Has the sudden urge to go and try sticking things on the Tucano’s at work to try it out…

(before you say, I KNOW the Brazilian’s are selling armed Tucanos :wink: )

#133

Thats for sure, but modern targets are finiky, especially in Iraq (unless you are US), so a man on the ground saying - third building from the right of the Mosque, the one with the red windows, is much better than blowing away the School down the road.

But you are right, and its not just ASTOR, look to the Mighty Hunter as well. Even AWACS has a role. Or an RPV etc…

#134

Speaking of aforementioned Mighty Hunter, have you seen/heard this talk of seeing if they can squeeze what is nearly a heavy bomber out of MRA4??? “How many Storm Shadow can you fit in a Mini… errrr, on a Nimrod?”

#135

Festamus you are right in all, I didn’t specified that the Pucará isn’t a real CAS possibility in the actual battlefield, if we are talking about CAS agaisnt a regular army, normally equiped.

#136

The Pucara is well suited for what it was designed for: COIN & low intensity warfare.
It was never indended for use in a high threat environment, though its survival rate might be better than expected, due to use of ULL flight patterns & modern armies’ anti air being fast jet oriented.

#137

The Pucara is well suited for what it was designed for: COIN & low intensity warfare.
It was never indended for use in a high threat environment, though its survival rate might be better than expected, due to use of ULL flight patterns & modern armies’ anti air being fast jet oriented

Exactly, that is what I am triying to say.

More info about the IA-58 Delta.

IA-58D:

Basically a IA-58A but completely refurbished.

Amongst the most salient characteristics of this airplane, it is worth mentioning ( as Eagle previusly posted) the widespread use of composite materials in the fuselage, they have contributed to increasing the machine’s useful life span.

Some pics of the work done in LMAASA ( Lockheed Martin Argentina Sociedad Anonima, Formerly FMA), in July 2004.

The new elements includes a new electric wiring and fuel/hidraulic pipes.
Also the proppeller blades and some engine components are replaced for more modern ones.

The more noticeable differences took place inside the cabin, at the controls, mainly in the instrument panel, where instruments were replaced to indicate measures in feet, instead of in meters. For this purpose, Collins VHF 22B, CTL 22 and 32, VIR 32 and RMI 30, as well as a Garmin GPS 150 XL and a Litton HSI.

A factory fresh IA-58 Delta, note the low visibility grey, more suitable for air superiority than the low level attack arena , usual in the Pucara.

This photo was took in he LMAASA “Flugplatz”, just at 15 km where I am writing this. :wink:

Another atemp of an early modernization of this particular plane:

IA-66:

This version made his maiden flight in 1986.
It was equipped with 2 four blade, 1100shp, Garret turboprops, that boosted the performace to more than 600 km/h and increase the payload to 2000 kg.

Also carry 4 x 12,7 mm M3, instead the 30 caliber MGs.
Despite the good caracteristics of this plane, the weapons ( and engines) embargo aplied to Argentina in the post Falkland-Malvinas conflict crippled the logistic for the Garret TP.

#138

I suppose the question on everybodies lips during this topic is…

are the argies a credible fighting force now?

Edit to add, have they swung a way from insurgent fighting and dissappearing people to a proficient fighting force that could fight and win battles? The mountain troops were always pretty good, but what of the general army?

#139

Having spent a wee whiles with the aforesaid, youd be surprised, certainly as much if not more ordnance than a GR4 and with a much greater loiter time, plus the ability to eat a pie every 15 minutes I think.

#140

I suppose the question on everybodies lips during this topic is…

are the argies a credible fighting force now?

Edit to add, have they swung a way from insurgent fighting and dissappearing people to a proficient fighting force that could fight and win battles? The mountain troops were always pretty good, but what of the general army?

Well…considering the losses of the sustain by the Britons I think they are.

I dont have any sympaty with the military goverment, I just give my opinion.

Anyway I read the Mod saying “No more Falklands.Malvinas threads”…so I stop right here :roll: