Best battle tank of WW2?

Based soley on the principle of “which would win in a fight”, I think I have to go for the Char B. The 2 pdr shells would bounce off it, but if the Char got an HE shot or two onto the MATILDA that would be end-of-mission.

This assumes it’s a standard Char B and MATILDA we’re talking about.

This may have already been mentioned, but when the MATILDA was used in the desert, we didn’t have an AT gun that could knock it out. A bit awkward when they were captured . . . .

On versatility grounds, it’s still a close run thing. IIRC the German Char B with 105 mm was a gopping great beast but then the MATILDA CDL wasn’t exactly a thing of beauty!

Much as it goes against the grain, I would have to give the honours to the Char B in a “one on one” engagement.
Pro: Better main gun(albeit hull mounted), better obstacle clearing & a slightly higher top speed.
Anti: Higher silhouette, hull mount for main gun & short operational radius.

Don’t forget that the 75mm on the Char was a short barrelled HE gun, rather than a long barrelled tank killer - how effective would a comparitively light HE shell be against the Matilda’s armour?

The French 47mm gun was pretty effective for its time too.

Had a womble round the web & found this:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=732424&highlight=&sid=aca355f60af036e730bb0d42b803acdd

Scroll down about halfway to Lehmann’s post for an insight into the Char in combat.

Well I was frimly on the fence there, but after reading the above, I too will have to go with the Char.

Its only a pity the French didnt embrace the Blitzkrieg ethos, they could have made a diffrence.

Char for me in the end.

Interesting read that, thanks.

3-0 to the Char at the minute then.

Don’t forget that the 75mm on the Char was a short barrelled HE gun, rather than a long barrelled tank killer - how effective would a comparitively light HE shell be against the Matilda’s armour?

It’s not particularly an armour piercing effect that you would find (assuming they didn’t have an AP shell for that gun) but HE could degrade the MATILDA to achieve a mobility kill against the tracks/ suspension.

The fragmentation effects can also neutralise armour by destroying comms equipment and periscopes.

Lastly, don’t underestimate the effects HE shells bursting on the hull would have on the crew. Tank armour (particularly of that era) is more designed to provide protection against fragmentation and small arms as well as AP shot. The shock effect of HE can be very unpleasant and cause lasting harm.

I wouldn’t fancy a track bash in the middle of a battle myself :lol:

Didn’t think of that to be honest, must learn to think then type

Char!

Char goes through then, I’ll put the next one up tonight/tomorrow.

Pzkpfw III (Germany) v Churchill (UK)

Pzkpfw III (Germany)

Max Speed: Ausf A - C 20 mph (32km/h), Ausf E - N 25mph (40km/h) (ROAD). All models 11mph (18km/h) (CROSS COUNTRY)
Range: Ausf A - C 94 miles (150km), Ausf D 103 miles (165km), Ausf E - N 109 miles (150km)
Vertical Obstacle: 2’ (0.6m)
Trench: Ausf A - G 7’6’’ (2.3m)
Length: Ausf A & B 18’6’’ (5.7m), Ausg D - G 17’8’’ (5.4m), Ausf H 18’1’’ (5.52m), Ausf J - N 21’1’’ (6.4m)
Width: Ausf A - C 9’2’’ (2.8m), Ausf D - G 9’6’’ (2.9m), Ausf H - N 9’8’’ (2.95m)
Height: Ausf A 7’7’’ (2.35m), Ausf B & C 8’4’’ (2.55m), Ausf D - G 8’ (2.4m), Ausf H - N 9’8’’ (2.95m)
Weight: Ausf A - C 33,069lb (15,000kg), Ausf D & E 42,769lb (19,400kg), Ausf F & G 44,753lb (20,300kg), Ausf H 47,619lb (21,600kg), Ausf J - N 49,163lb (22,300kg)
Ground Pressure: Ausf A - C 15.3lb/sq in (0.973kg/sq cm), Ausf D 13.2lb/sq in (0.93kg/sq cm), Ausf E & H - N 13.5lb/sq in, Ausf F & G 14.1lb/sq in (0.99kg/sq cm)
Armour: Ausf A - C 0.57’’ - 3.54’’ (14.5 - 90mm), Ausf D - G 1.18’’ - 3.54’’ (30 - 90mm), Ausf H - N 1.18’’ - 3.15’’ (30 - 80mm) but often with spaced armour retro fitted
Armament: Ausf A - D 1x 37mm kwK L/45 gun, 2x 7.92mm MG34s coaxial with main gun, 1x MG34 in hull. Ausf E - H 1x 50mm KwK L/42 gun, 1x MG34 coaxial with main gun, 1x MG34 in hull, Ausf J & L 1x 50mm KwK L/60 gun, 1x MG34 coaxial with main gun, 1x MG34 in hull, Ausf M & N 1x 75mm KwK L/24 gun, 1x MG34 coaxial with main gun, 1x MG 34 in hull
Service History: In service with the German Army from 1939 to 1945. Also used by Spain and Turkey

One of two medium tanks introduced into the German Army, the P-III was to be the ‘anti-tank’ vehicle supported by the HE firing P-IV. Originally to be armed with a high velocity 50mm gun, it was decided to fit a 37mm weapon to standardise the supply chain with the infantry, who were equipped with 37mm weapons. A large turret ring was retained though, which allowed the P-III to be upgunned easily.

The P-III was well laid out, with plenty of room for the crew and a large ‘dustbin’ cupola giving the commander an excellant view. Maintenance was difficult however, mostly due to an over complicated gearbox and the 37mm was not good enough against the heavy British and French tanks such as the Matilda and the Char B1-bis, while the thin armour could not stop British 2-pounder or French 47mm shot. The P-III was upgunned with a low velocity 50mm weapon, which outranged the 2-pounder and fired a useful HE shell.

The P-III was steadily improved with a high velocity 50mm weapon installed after the low velocity gun was found to be useless against the T-34 and KV-1s in the USSR, and armour protection was also steadily increased. Eventually though, the P-III was outclassed as a battle tank, and a low velocity 75mm gun was fitted to allow it to give HE support to the new generation of battle tanks being introduced. These versions carried on fighting until the end of the war

Churchill (UK)

Max Speed: 15.5mph (24.8km/h) (ROAD SPEED), 8mph (12.8km/h) (CROSS COUNTRY)
Range: 90 miles (144km)
Vertical Obstacle: 2’6’’ (0.812m)
Trench: 10’ (3.048m)
Length: 24’5’’ (7.44m)
Width: 10’8’’ (3.25m)
Height: 8’2’’ (2.49m)
Weight: 87,360lb (39,574kg)
Ground Pressure: ???
Armour: Churchill I - VI 0.63’’ - 4’’ (16 - 102mm), Churchill VII & VIII 1’’ - 6’’ (25 - 152mm)
Armament: Churchill I 1x 2pounder gun, 1x 7.92mm BESA MG and 1x 3’’ howitzer in hull, Churchill II 1x 2pounder and 2x BESA, Churchill III & IV 1 6pounder gun and 2x BESA, Churchill IV NA 1x 75mm gun, 1x 0.3in Browning MG and 1x BESA, Churchill V & VIII 1x 95mm howitzer and 2x BESA, Churchill VI & VII 1x75mm gun and 2x BESA, Churchill I CS 2x 3’’ howitzers and 1x BESA
Service History: In service with the British Army from 1941 to 1952. Also used by Eire, India and Jordan.

The Churchill was the replacement for the Matilda II. It was originally designed to look like a World War 1 tank, with two side sponsons carrying 2pounder guns. Vauxhall Motors though and took the original design and added a turret. The first prototype was running within 7 months and the first production models came off the line within 11 months. There were some problems with such a rushed design though and the first models were unreliable and overcomplicated. These problems were eventually ironed out, but the Churchill had gained a reputation for fragility that it never really lost.

The armour was undoubtedly the best feature of the vehicle and was very heavy for the time. The Churchill VII was also the first British tank to have a commander’s cupola, a great improvement on previous vehicles. The Churchill also had extremely good ammunition stowage, with room for 150 rounds of 2pounder and 58 rounds of 3’’ ammunition in the Churchill I. It was also the first tank to use the Merritt Brown regenerative steering system which made the vehicle much easier to drive (it is also the system used by every modern tank).

In combat, the Churchill was used in Tunisia and Italy, as well as in North West Europe and on the Dieppe raids. The thick armour proved very useful, but it suffered from being out gunned by most German tanks. There were also a number of special use vehicles based on the Churchill chassis, including bridge layers, mineclearing, flame throwing, armoured recovery and Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers (AVRE) which stayed in service with the British Army until the early 1960s.


As ever people - please give a reason for your choice - make an effort!

Ground pressure for Churchill:
Churchill Mk III - 0.92 kg/cm2;
Churchill Mk VII - 0.94 kg/cm2;

A tough one.

On the face of it the CHURCHILL is probably the better tank. Better gun (apart from the 2 pdr variants), better armour.

Both these probably a result of it being a younger design.

It was also hugely versatile. Due to it’s AVRE variant being used by 79th Armoured I would guess it probably had more special variants than any other Allied tank, with the possible exception of SHERMAN. I’m not going to list them all as I’ll be using a few a quiz questions if I ever get another answer right :smiley:

Pz III was outclassed by later CHURCHILL variants, but was still a very useful tank. IIRC it didn’t have much of a problem with tanks of the CRUSADER / GRANT era which are perhaps more contemporaneous.

The chassis was also used for plenty of SPGs such as STUG III (iirc, I’m sure someone will correct me if needs be). It could be argued that STUG III would certainly have been a match for CHURCHILL in a shooting match.

A close one, but I’m saying CHURCHILL. Better tank and very versatile.

Churchill

Better armour & a main gun that kept ahead of the armour on contemporary MkIII’s. The 6pdr was a fine weapon against the vast majority of Axis AFV’s, right up to the up-armoured MkIV.
The Churchill was also know to be an exceedingly stable gun platform, so reengaging a target for a second shot was very fast.

Although the Churchill speed was not great its manoeuvrability was excellent and could go places most tanks could not.

Churchill for me.

tanks are of different classes. In early war years, the churchill was rated as a heavy and had armor that outclassed that of the panzer III .
50mm on the III wasn’t very effective either.

he churchill continued to serve even in normandy, while the III was considered obsolete and turned into STUG III assault guns.

For this one, and taking onboard what Hosenfield has said, and bearing in mind the premise of this competition.

I would have to go with the Churchill. First introduced at Dieppe, got tangled in the Shingle.

It went on to become a good Tank for the British, many versions were made, not least the Crocodile, which genuinely scared the opposition.

It could survive a frontal hit from a Panther/Stug. It had many gun variations, from the 57mm to the 90mm, though I believe the 75mm was probably the best.

On a frontal 1-1 with a PzIII, no competition.

Drawbacks were the lack of speed, Infantry pace here, and probably the non sloped armour.

My vote goes to the Churchill though, a decent tank and more survivable I think than a Sherman, though if in trouble the speed lack could be fatal.

Churchill for me.

Churchill goes through then - next one inbound after Pizza King has paid me a visit 8)

The first true clash of the Titans!

[b]T-34 (USSR) vs Pzkpfw V Panther (Germany)

T-34/85 (USSR)[/b]

Max Speed: 31mph (50km/h) (ROAD)
Range: 186 miles (300km)
Vertical Obstacle: 2’7’’ (0.79m)
Trench: 8’2’’ (2.49m)
Length: 24’7’’ (7.5m) (Including gun)
Width: 9’7’’ (2.92m)
Height: 7’10’’ (2.39m)
Weight: 70,547lb (32,000Kg)
Ground Pressure: 11.2lb/ sq in (0.8Kg/Sq cm)
Armour: 0.71 - 2.36’’ (18 - 60mm)
Armament: 1x 85mm M1944 ZIS S53 L/53 gun, 2x 7.62mm DT MGs
Service History: In service with the Soviet army from 1940. Still used by many armies today.

In 1936, the young engineer MI Koshkin was transferred to the Komintern tank factory in Karkhov, which was working on the continued modernisation of the BT- series of tanks. In 1937 the factory was reassigned to work on designing a new medium tank, which was to be a wheel-track vehicle known as the A-20. Koshkin however was convinced that wheel/track designs were not going to be succesful and designed a purely tracked version, the A-32, which the Main Military Council of the USSR accepted as a prototype to be compared with the A-20. The T-32 (as the A-32 was known by then) was succesful, although the Armour Directorate recommended heavier armour and the adoption of a heavier gun (the prototype was armed with the same 45mm gun as the BT- series of tanks), these recommendations led to the T-34.

The T-34 design was accepted by the Main Military Council in 1939 and the first production models left the Komintern factory in January 1940, with mass production starting in June 1940 after a series of trials. The T-34 was noted for its well sloped armour which considerably increased the resistance to penetration. The 76.2mm high velocity gun was also a revelation, the heaviest gun that had ever been mounted on a medium tank.

By the time of the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, 1,225 T-34s had been produced and came as a complete shock to the Germans, who found that their 37mm anti tank gun was completely useless against the T-34.

By 1943, the 76.2mm gun was proving more ineffectual against the new heavier German tanks, despite an upgrade to a longer gun with higher muzzle velocity in 1941. In order to keep the T-34 effective on the front line, a new 85mm D-5T was adopted, to produce the T-34/85. This tank proved to be one of the best tanks produced by any country during the war, and many are still in front line service with various countries around the world.

[b]Pzkpfw V Panther (Germany)

Max Speed:[/b] 29 mph (46km/h) (ROAD)
Range: 110 miles (177km)
Vertical Obstacle: 3’ (0.9m)
Trench: 6’3’’ (1.9m)
Length: 22’6’’ (6.86m)
Width: 10’10’’ (3.3m)
Height: 9’8’’ (2.95m)
Weight: 98,766lb (44,800kg)
Ground Pressure: 12.5lb/sq in (0.88kg/sq cm)
Armour: 0.6 - 4.72’’ (20 - 120mm)
Armament: 1x 75mm KwK42 L/70 gun, 2x 7.92mm MG34 MGs
Service History: In service with the German army from 1943 to 1945. Also used by the French and Soviet armies after the war.

Until the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, the Panzer IV was the heaviest tank in the German army and had proved to be perfectly adequate, however the appearence of the T-34 and the KV-1 proved a nasty shock to the Germans and a new requirement was drawn up for a heavier tank to face the Soviet threat. At first it was proposed to produce a direct copy of the T-34, but German pride was too much to allow that so a new tank was designed incorporating the best of the T-34 design.

MAN were chosen to produce the new tank, although Daimler Benz had to be brought to help production. The first production tank left the factory in January 1943 but production never reached the 600 a month target set by Hitler.

After a poor combat debut at Kursk, caused by being rushed into service, the Panther developed into a fine tank that proved superior to the T-34/76 and was very popular with its crews. It also proved to be superior to all western Allied tanks, with the long 75mm gun proving even more deadly then the Tiger’s 88mm gun.

Despite its complexity and high manufacturing costs the Panther was a sucesful design that many consider to be one of the best tanks of the war that was only really defeated by overwhelmingly superior Allied air power.

REMEMBER - JUSTIFY YOUR VOTE, ONE WORD ANSWERS WILL BE IGNORED. PUT SOME EFFORT (AND THOUGHT) INTO IT!!

In an one to one combat, Panzerkampfwagen V Panther will crush the T34/85.

Reasons: Better armoured, much better gun (75mm KwK42 L/70 gun clearly outperforms the Russian 85 mm and even 88 mm KwK36 L/56 of the Tiger 1 - see http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/guns.html), more powerful (with more than 100 HP), heavier.

Panther was indeed much expensive than T34 but was a masterpiece of engineering comparing to T34/85.

So:
Panzerkampfwagen V Panther - one;
T34/85 - nil;

Enemy introduced new tank !
Shape roughly similar to ‘Tridsatchedverka’ (T-34).
Tank is heavily armored, weight is est. 40-50 tons.
Armament is probably 88mm AA gun.
We had losses at combat ranges beyond 2,000m. …"
Soviet radio message from July 8th of 1943.

Quoted from http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm :lol: