Best battle tank of WW2?

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#121

I believe it was general von Runstedt that referred to the T-34 as “the best tank in the world” but I think that was just excuses, like old Herman moaning about not having any Spitfires

1 vs 1 - I would put my money on the Panther, but more than often it would be 3 x T-34s vs 1 x Frozen Panther which is a different story

Interesting to note that the T34 is still in service in some present day military forces. In the year 2000 the North Korean military still had approximately 250 T-34s in service!

#122

Well. I’m genuinely torn here. I know on a 1 for 1 the Panther would most likely do better than the T-34/85.

But I’m drawn to the engineering. The Panther, on its day was excellent, but it had to be on its day. The T-34/85 on the other hand had a very reliable powerplant, and one that went on to power numerous post war Soviet Tanks.

The 85mm gun could live with the Panther, the crews maybe couldnt. The Panther wasnt as reliable on any given day as the T-34/85.

But the German optics throughout the war were better. Also the Panther gun was able to take on at range any Allied tank of the war.

But the T-34/85 was designed to last about 20 hours in battle, was rough and ready and in the right conditions a match for any German AFV.

As a specialist weapon, it has to be the Panther, but, as a mass designed and operated weapon it has to be the T-34/85.

The result for me is a draw. I choose neither. I think they are the best Tanks of ww2, both of them.

A draw for me and I urge everyone to look at this one objectively and not subjectively - as in if its Soviet it must be bad - which is just not true, look at it in context.

#123

you must remember to compare the firing rates and ammunition carrying capacity of each tank as well as turn spinning speed.

#124

Time to bump this back up to get more votes going. Come on guys, these are probably 2 of the best tanks of ww2!!!

Also BDL puts a bit of effort in here, so give your answer as much effort please.

#125

2-0 at the minute then. I’ll give it another 24 hours (ish).

For Hosenfield - the T-34/85 carried 55 rounds of 85mm ammo, the Panther had 79 rounds of 75mm.

#126

Do you mean turret or track speed ?

#127

I’m going for the T34 on the basis that they might not have been the better engineered, but they were the better production design, in that a great tank could be made very quickly and in very large numbers.

As tank vs tank in isolation, the PANTHER would probably win, but it isn’t just about that.

A very even match IMHO.

#128

Based on the initial performance, my vote goes to the Panther:
Better armour.
More reliable main armament(Russki 75 had some serious teething troubles). The high velocity of the German 75mm outweighs the increased mass of the Russki 85.
Better crew accomodation(comfort= performance).

Panther+1

#129

This is immpossible, too many terms have to be involved to choose. Yes the Panther would probably kill a T-34 one on one, but T-34’s were never alone, they had friends high and low, and their friends kill all the Panther’s friends.

#130

3-2 to the Panther then, I’ll give it a few more hours before closing voting since it’s so close.

#131

I’ll go for the Panther for the reasons already given above. After all we’re comparing the tanks themselves rather than the tactics employed.

Otherwise we could compare weapons and the MG42 would lose out to a plastic teaspoon.

#132

Panther goes through then, one of the truly great tanks of the war goes out.

Next one will be done in a bit

#133

[b]KV-1 (USSR) vs Crusader (UK)

KV-1[/b]

Max Speed: 22 mph (35km/h)
Range: 156 miles (250km)
Vertical Obstacle: 3’8’’ (1.2m)
Trench: 8’6’’ (2.8m)
Length: 20’7’’ (6.27m)
Width: 10’2’’ (3.1m)
Height: 7’11’’ (2.41m)
Weight: 104,719lb (47,500kg)
Ground Pressure: 10.68lb/sq in (0.75kg/sq cm)
Armour: 2.95’’ - 3.94’’ (75 - 100mm)
Armament: 1x 76.2mm gun (various types used), 3x 7.62mm DT MGs.
Ammunition: 114x 76.2mm, 3,024x 7.62mm
Service History: Soviet Army 1940 - 1945

At the outbreak of WW2, the Soviet Army was practically the only one in the world armed with a production heavy tank. Production of the KV-1 began in 1940 and the type was first used in combat in February 1940 when a platoon was sent to Finland for combat testing and took part in the break through the Finnish front line with no KV-1s lost, despite heavy losses to multi-turretted heavy tanks accompanying them.

By the time of the German invasion in June 1941, the Soviets had 638 KV-1s in service and they came as a rude surprise to the Whermacht who were mostly equipped with light 37mm anti-tank guns incapable of harming the KV-1 without a lucky shot.

To provide heavy artillery support to the normal KV-1, a self propelled gun model (KV-2) was produced, mounting a huge box turret with a 152mm howitzer with 36 rounds of 152mm ammunition carried. This turret serverely affected the performance of the tank however and the KV-2 was soon dropped.

The KV-1 stayed in production though, and succesive models received heavier armour and a longer barelled gun. Some welded components were also replaced with casted parts to simplify production.

Front line experience showed that the KV-1 was too slow and a new lighter and faster model, the KV-1s, was adopted in 1942. As the need for heavier armament became apparent, the 85mm gun was adopted in 1943 to produce the KV-85.

Subsequent attempts to improve the KV series led to a large number of experimental tanks, but it was eventually replaced by the IS- series of tanks.

Crusader

Max Speed: 27mph (43.2km/h)
Range: 100 miles (160km)
Vertical Obstacle: 2’3’’ (0.685m)
Trench: 8’2’’ (2.59m)
Length: 19’8’’ (5.99m)
Width: 8’8’’ (2.64m)
Height: 7’4’’ (2.23m)
Weight: Crusader I and II: 42,560lb (19,279Kg), Crusader III: 44,240lb (20,040Kg)
Ground Pressure: 14.79lb/sq in (1.04Kg/sq cm)
Armour: Crusader I: 0.28 - 1.57’’ (7 - 40mm), Crusader II: 0.28 - 1.93’’ (7 - 43mm), Crusader III: 0.28 - 2’’ (7 - 51mm)
Armament: Crusader I&II: 1x 2pounder gun and 2x 7.92mm BESA MG, Crusader III: 1x 6pounder gun and 1x BESA MG
Ammunition: Crusader I: 110x 2pounder and 4,500x 7.92mm, Crusader II: 130x 2 pounder and 4,500x 7.92m, Crusader III: 65x pounder and 5,000x 7.92mm
Service History: British Army from 1939 to 1943

The Crusader was developed from the Convenanter and entered service in 1939. It was fitted with Christie suspension (possibly the best point of the tank) which allowed speeds of much higher than the official top speed of 27mph. In the Western Desert, mechanics often removed the engine governors and let the Liberty engine run as fast as it could, often allowing the tank to travel at 40mph or more, with the crew still being comfortable - although the engine could not take that much strain for too long.

The Crusader was rushed into service too quickly, and the in the first engagements (during Operation Battleaxe in 1941), more Crusaders were lost to mechanical breakdown than enemy action. These problems were eventually ironed out and the Crusader went on to fight in all of the major engagements in the Western Desert. By El-Alemain, the 6pounder armed Crusader III was in service giving the Crusader a better anti-armour performance. There was also a support version, armed with a 3inch howitzer, to give HE support to the combat tanks.

By the end of the desert campaign, the Crusader was outdated as a battle tank, and although a few went to Italy they were gradually phased out. Some hulls did stay in service after 1943 as AA vehicles or gun towers, but they never fought on the front lines again.

Although the Crusader had been a popular tank with its crews, due to the high speeds and comfortable ride, it was always underarmoured and undergunned against German tanks.

#134

No contest here for me. Your well researched information says it all for me. If the Crusader couldnt hold its own with a Panzer III, there was no way it could take on a KV.

For 1940, the KV was a true monster tank and thats the only choice here I can go with.

KV for me. Tough, well armoured, rugged and with a good gun for 1940-41 that outgunned all tanks in those years.

#135

This is the most unbalanced match up of the round, no questions about that.

There’s only one winner for me too unfortunately, and the crew smell of vodka and beetroot. The Crusader’s outgunned, outarmoured and outclassed, their only hope is to out run the KV-1 and hope they can get close enough to the back to get through the rear armour.

#136

KV for me as well.

Obvious really.

#137

The Crusader is outgunned, lacking in armour & of a different class.

KV1 gets my vote.

#138

KV 1.

#139

I’ll end this one now then, far too one sided. Next one’s coming up soon…

#140

Thanks to a link Dani posted, a new stat for each vehicle will now be added - aproximate failure range for the main gun. This is the approximate range at which the best anti armour shell fired by the main gun (for each type if more than one gun was used - ie for both the 6 pounder and the 75mm on British tanks) would fail to penetrate the heaviest armour on the opposing tank.

Next match up is being written as you read this (unless you’re reading this after I’ve written the next one, in which case, it’s below here somewhere).