Bomber Harris, Criminal or Hero?

its a little hypocritical to complain if the enemy uses the tactics you first used on them, more effectively

Presumeably the Allied command knew NOTHING about the extermination in the concentration camps. So this argument is not correct.

The Allies while not fully aware of the scale of the holocaust at the death camps were fully aware of the SS death squads operating in the East.

Yes, it is ugly. But I do nto know what whould happened to the German pilots if half a million Brits were killed in bombing. What do you think?

Regards
Igor

There are a couple of instances where German pilots were attacked by mobs. However this type of behaviour was never encouraged by the British authorities, unlike in Germany.

It beats me why the RAF thought that Germany would cave in after sustained bombing of civilian targets in the first place. It didn’t work when the Luftwaffe tried it on England, why did they think that Germans would fold any quicker? Yet they kept it up for years, with no real apparent slowdown by the German war machine. Arms production of all kinds actually went up IIRC during the peak of British bombing. What exactly did they think they were achieving? Or was it more of a revenge campaign?

There’s some truth to this. But it should be noted that Germany only went over to a full War economy in 1942, and the dispersion of industry from major metropolitan areas to rural areas caused disruption in the German production and made it more difficult to get their equipment to the front and still forced them to consume more resources, increasing the cost of unit production. Not to mention that the Germans also enjoyed over-designing things and producing overly complex machines.

Also, don’t underestimate the resources the Luftwaffe had to pour into defending the Reich against air attacks, and how the diversion of those resources starved them in terms of air power and guns on the Eastern Front…

But I agree, there was a better way to use the Allied strategic air power advantage that would ultimately have been more humane, and effective…

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Harris said that if a hundred thousand civilians died to save one british soldier that was an acceptable price, i cant agree more,crushing majority of germans were nazi supporters, today they are different people but back then even wholesale extermination of the german people to save the lives of their victims i would find acceptable, germans of WW2 deserved total war, they deserved every death, every rape, every bomb.
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Harris was not a hero but i find his approach extremely healthy( even if not politically correct ) under the circumstances.

But he didn’t really save any British soldiers with area bombing, certainly not that many. In fact, if Harris had had his way, the air power of Bomber Command and the 8th AF never would have been used in direct support prior too, and during, the Normandy campaign, which would have cost thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Western Allied soldiers their lives. This was simply because Harris had decried the use of air power in direct support of armies, despite the fact it had shown to be quite effective and accurate when used in conjunction of direct offensive actions of said armies…

That Harris shunned the direct bomber support is a massive mistake on his part, regardless one cannot underastimate the value of terror warfare, it wouldnt work on Russians but Germany was already aware that it lost the war so further crushing its morale would ceirtanly make it easier.

True. But it was the thought that counts. I don’t agree with the Allied campaign, but having said that, it is too often simply distilled down to a “whirlwind” campaign of punition. I think the historical evidence doesn’t really bear this out and the UK/US bomber crews clearly were sent with the mandate to smash German industry, not to conduct a localized genocide. The only ways they effectively could attack the Third Reich in 1941-1944, by air…

But that in no way justifies the wanton killing of civilians by area bombing…

There was absolutely no direct correlation between terror bombing, and the breaking of the German will to fight. Indeed, many at the front fought harder as they were pissed. For the very same reasons the Russians did…

Feel free to provide evidence/studies to the contrary…And your opinions are being dangerously masked as fact here.

I’ve been in this thread and have in a sense egged in on. You guys need to cool the Poland vs. German blood feud, or this thread is getting closed!

I think I’m going to separate this off as it is since we’re getting off topic…

Harris should have been replaced by Gen. Eisenhower’s aide, Air Marshal Arthur Tedder…

Closing this thread, temporarily, to let things cool off…

Heres my problem.

While interesting, this debate has stepped outside the bounds of the Thread title.

Maybe someone could start a new thread about nazism and just how they came to power in 1930’s germany?

Ive always wondered how a nation who gave us sciences and great composers and literature and humanities and so much more could basically be hijacked by a bunch of complete thugs and be complicit in the whole thing.

But this thread is for bomber Harris, his rights, his wrongs and the actions that he took and the effects of those actions.

Cheers…

Done! Put all posts not related to Air Marshal Harris nor Allied strategic bombing in this new thread.

Let the bombs fall!

Brian

When speaking of German wartime leaders and their perspectives on area bombing, none is more important than Albert Speer, Hitler’s Armaments Minister from early 1942 to the end of the war. Max Hastings, in Bomber Command, describes him as a man who had “a superb grasp of the German economy and a brilliant talent for improvising.” Speer cleverly concealed German industries from Allied bombers by dispersing their locations and functions. As it turned out, it was not until the allies began to adopt precision bombing on oil and transportation targets did the German economy come to a halt. Speer’s genius effectively saved the German economy until late 1944.

Speer did feel that the allied bombing policy was a legitimate one for several reasons: one, it opened the second front in Europe which sought to wear down German strength in the West for the D-Day Normandy landings; this strategy also worked to reduce German Wehrmacht strength on the Eastern front against the Red Army. Second, the unpredictability of the air attacks made this front gigantic as every square metre of German territory was a kind of front line; in Speer’s own words:

"The defence against air attacks required the production of thousands of anti-aircraft guns, the stockpiling of tremendous quantities of ammunition all over the country, and holding in readiness hundreds of thousands of soldiers, 55,000 artillery guns and a large part of the German air force’s strength from fighting offensively to defending Germany itself against air raids.

It was this “tying down” factor which was “the greatest lost battle on the German side.”

And in '43 bomber command nearly lived up to Harris’s expectations In attacking the Ruhr and destroying Hamburg. Speir warned Hitler that if bomber command achieved similar efforts on 5 or 6 other cities, German morale would entirely collapse.

The following is interesting…

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm

Why, he would still have had to follow the policy of the British War Cabinet.

Harris may have completely agreed with the bombing policy, but he didn’t decide on that policy, that was in the hands of the British government.

In “The Second World War,” (on pages 415-417) John Keegan writes:

On 12 January 1944 Air Marshal Arthur Harris, chief of RAF Bomber Command,
wrote:

It is clear that the best and indeed the only efficient support which Bomber
Command can give to [Operation] Overlord is the intensification of attacks on
suitable industrial targets in Germany as and when the opportunity offers. If we
attempt to substitute for this process attacks on gun emplacements, beach defences,
communications or [ammunition] dumps in occupied territory, we shall commit the
irremediable error of diverting our best weapons from the military function, for
which it has been equipped and trained, to tasks which it cannot effectively carry out.
Though this might give a spurious appearance of ‘supporting’ the Army, in reality it
would be the greatest disservice we could do them.

‘Bomber’ Harris’s prognosis of the effect of diverting his strategic bombers from the ‘area’ bombing of Germany to ‘precision’ bombing on France was to be proved dramatically in-correct. In the first place, his crews demonstrated that they had now acquired the skill to hit small targets with great accuracy and to sustain this ‘precision’ campaign even in the teeth of fierce German resistance. In March the objections of Harris and General Carl Spaatz, commanding the Eighth Air Force, Bomber Command’s American equivalent, were overruled and both air forces were placed under Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Tedder, Eisenhower’s deputy. From then onwards strategic air forces embarked on a campaign against the French railway system which was to cost them 2000 aircraft and 12,000 aircrew in a little over two months. In April and May Bomber Command, which had dropped 70 per cent of its bombs on Germany in March, reversed its proportional effort: in April it dropped 14,000 tons on Germany but 20,000 on France; in May it launched three-quarters of its sorties against France. During June the weight of attack on France increase when 52,000 tons were dropped in the invasion area and on the military infrastructure surrounding it.

Moreover, in flat contradiction of Harris’s forecast, RAF bombers carried out missions with an effectiveness which not only ‘supported’ the army very effectively indeed but went far towards determining the Germans’ defeat in Normandy. By comparison the British and American armies, the German army belonged to a previous generatic military development. Its Panzer and motorised divisions apart, it moved over short distances on foot by road and over long distances by rail; while all its supplies and heavy equipment, even for formations which possessed their own motor transport, moved elusively by rail. The interruption of the French railway system and the destruction bridges therefore severely restricted its ability not only to manoeuvre but even to fight at all; from April to June, and thereafter during the course of the Normandy battle French railway working was brought almost to a standstill and most bridges over the major northern French rivers were broken or at least damaged too severely to be quickly repaired.

Much of the devastation was achieved by the medium-range and fighter bombers the British Second Tactical and the recently formed American Ninth Air Forces; American Thunderbolt and British Typhoon ground-attack fighters flying vast daylight ‘sweeps’ over northern France destroyed 500 locomotives between 20 and 28 May alone. However. - far more serious structural devastation - to bridges, rail yards and locomotive repair shops - was the work of the strategic bombers. By late May, French railway traffic had declined 55 per cent of the January figure; by 6 June the destruction of the Seine bridges had duped it to 30 per cent, and thereafter it declined to 10 per cent. As early as 3 June a despairing officer of Rundstedt’s staff sent a report (decrypted by Ultra) that the railway authorities ‘are seriously considering whether it is not useless to attempt further repair work’, so relentless was the pressure the Allied forces were sustaining on the network.

The rail capacity that Germany’s OB West succeeded in maintaining in June and July 1944 just sufficed to provide the Seventh and Fifth Panzer Armies with the irreducible minimum of food, fuel and ammunition (though not enough to revictual Paris, which way in serious danger of starvation just before its liberation). However, such supplies could be guaranteed to the fighting troops only as long as they did not attempt to manoeuvre; so fragile and so inflexible was the network of communication improvised between the Reich and Germany that the troops at the battlefront could depend upon it only if they remained fixed to its terminals. Once they moved, they risked starvation of essentials - hence their inability to ‘make a fighting withdrawal in France’. When their fortified perimeter of the bridgehead was destroyed by Patton’s Blitzkrieg, they could only retreat at the fastest possible speed to the next fortified position with which a communication system connected: and that was the West Wall on the Franco-German border.

The Normandy campaign, in both its preliminaries and its central events, therefore proved Harris wrong. Airpower used in the direct support of armies had worked with stunning success at the immediate and at the strategic level. None the less it was inevitable and also understandable that Harris should have resisted pressure from above to direct his bomber force from the attack on German cities. After all, Bomber Command justifiably prided itself on having for three years been the only instrument of force the Western powers had brought directly to bear against the territory of the Reich (the US Eighth Air Force had more recently come to the struggle). Moreover, Harris was the spokesman of a service whose singular and unique raison d’etre was to bomb the enemy’s homeland.
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Penguin: ISBN- 0-14-303573-8

But the allies also have spend a lot of resources and man-hours waste for production of Fantastical figures oof super-expensieve Strategical bombers.
And the 55 000 of artillery guns it’s actually not so much with comparition with 21 000 + of Strategical bombers and about 150 000 mens of crew that have been lost by both RAF and USSAF over GErmany.
Besides the GErmans never used more then the 350 fighters at one time since 1943 in their union air Defence system against Strategical bombings.So this hardly refuse their air power in the Eastern front.

The bomber production was scarcily a dent in US war production. They prevented a shortage of no weapons and allowed the Allies to pressure the Reich sooner than they otherwise could have…

Besides the GErmans never used more then the 350 fighters at one time since 1943 in their union air Defence system against Strategical bombings.So this hardly refuse their air power in the Eastern front.

That number sounds low, but the Luftwaffe was also under a great deal of pressure from RAF fighter command and the Eighth AAF which accounts for a lot of losses that prevented them from maintaining a larger number of fighters, especially by 1944 even though German fighter production was increasing; pilot production was not increasing.

Those strategic bombers also accounted for the vast fuel and lubricants shortage the Germans faced by 1944. That the Red Air Force was never outnumbered after 1943, so there was a shortage of Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front, especially since they couldn’t bomb the new Soviet ‘Tankograds’ in Siberia and were limited tactical air support…

Sorry Nickdfresh, but that doesn’t alter my argument at all. Harris was indeed totally in favour of using Bomber Command in a strategic bombing campaign against Germany, but he didn’t make the policy, that was decided by the British War Cabinet.
Nothing in your post contradicts that.

That was not a specific response to you. It was an overall critique of Harris by Keegan that I tend to agree with that I finally got around to scanning last night…

Although, it is partially where I derive some of my high opinion of Tedders as one of the more underrated and under-appreciated people of WWII…

By the end of '43, about 49% of the Luftwaffe fighter force was engaged against the bomber offensive.

One table giving 1944 sortie and loss totals for all German combat aircraft from the US archives. Its loss numbers are only about one-third of Groehler’s, and probably include only total losses and write offs resulting from combat, a more common definition of the term.

1944 - All Combat Types…Sorties…Losses…Losses/Sortie
Total West…182,004…9768…0.0537
Eastern Front…342,483…2406…0.00703

The attacks in the winter of 1944 were escorted by P-51’s and P-47’s and with the appearance of these planes in force a sharp change had been ordered in escort tactics. Previously the escort planes had to protect the bomber force as their primary responsibility. They were now instructed to invite opposition from German fighter forces and to engage them at every opportunity. As a result, German fighter losses mounted sharply. The claimed losses in January were 1,115 German fighters, in February 1,118 and in March 1,217. The losses in planes were accompanied by losses in experienced pilots and disorganization and loss of the combat strength of squadrons and groups. By the spring of 1944 opposition of the Luftwaffe had ceased to be effective.

And once the right formula was reached, P-51 + destruction of fuel Industry + transportation Network, it’s amazing how quickly Germany was brought to it’s knees by the bombing offensive.