Can I just ask what is the point of this thread?
If its solely to bait our US members here, I’m locking it.
These Nazis exist in almost every country and Combat 18 is not unique to the US, in fact it originated here in the UK;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18
I wish some of you would get your facts right before you go spouting off.
The next posts better have some relevancy to something!
Cheven, what is your point with all of this? That American fascists are worse than others’ fascists, like your own which are tacitly supported by elements in your gov’t unlike ours? Why do you keep recycling photos of a few extremists? Do you think this is some “norm” over here? They’re very much either ignored or scorned with anti-Klan demonstrators often outnumbering the actual groups of fascists.
I’ve posted actual news articles while you recycle the same photos 10-racist assholes at a protest. You say there are not more than 15K or 20K Russian skinheads, then how many American extreme rightists do you think exist?
I don’t know, what “freedom of speech” do some members mean?
But obviously when some points of N-S party has the call to the forced moving out according to the racial sign this can’t be consider in limits of freedoom speech. This can be consider by court.
If they actually try it, then they can be convicted under not only violating someone’s civil rights, they can be tried under additional hate crimes statutes in the United States. There is a difference between speech and action.
White Supremacists/neoNazis/Black Separatists have been vigorously prosecuted in the US. You can google “The Order,” “Randy Weaver,” or the SLA. If their activities are illegal, then they will be investigated and prosecuted.
And freedom of speech is what American soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, and Coast Guardsmen died for in WWII. Fascists censor freedom of speech, and break their own written laws to silence dissent.
Yes, i can to say this is the personal matter of Americans - to decide which party can be legal or illegal. But the problem is the nationalists in other countries take the example on americans.
Cheers.
Is this why many Russians are carrying out their own political pogrom? Because they see internet pictures of ‘American idiots’ in pseudo-SS uniforms? I highly doubt it!
Before this hypocritically ludicrous thread is locked, I’d like to ask the Russian members here --what they think of their gov’t?
Vladimir Putin is perceived by many in the West to be an Authoritarian “strongman” that uses censorship, biasedly targeted investigations of dissident groups, and espionage to attack political rivals and to silence dissent.
What does Cheven and Sneaksie think of this, I’ve noticed they’ve consciously avoid mention of their fearless ex-KGB Vlad the Impaler! Isn’t he a sort of fascist? Yet his semi-police state fails to prosecute supposedly simpleton skinheads and the Russian mob? Interesting.
Both of you seem to imply a double standard. And I find it hysterically ironic that people from a country carrying out a War of vicious atrocities in Chechnya and with a gov’t that has effectively suspended basic civil rights should be mentioning anybody else’s’ countries without examining their own.
In this case you’re right. I was just comenting what happend in Madrid.
As far as I know, the illegal nazi organisations in Poland are highly infiltrated by Internal Security Agency (ABW- polish counterintelligence agency) and the police, for many years.
Polish media started to speak loud about nazi problem after the whole case with polish “Blood & Honor” organization* came to daylight. There was a webpage installed on server in the USA, where the lists of nazis’ enemies in Poland (left-wing activists, homosexuals, liberals, etc.) were publicated with all personal data (adresses, telephone numbers etc.). The admin of this webpage was openly calling the polish nazis to punish them (murder included). Fortunately, the polish police with cooperation with FBI suspended the webpage and all people in Poland who had something in common with creation of this page were arrested.
In fact if anyone carry a nazi swastika flag in public, he would face a serious consequences from the police.
For example, I have read recently that in city of Torun, district attorney is preparing charges against the members of NOP (National Revival of Poland), who will be accused of nazi propaganda. They had a fight with anarchists in the city center, but skinheads are the only one who will face the charges.
In the city of my birth, skinheads have never had a easy life. Besides all youth subcultures who were against skinheads, also police treated them in the “special” way. One of this idiots (calling himself a “Jackal”) attacked once a man and beated him seriously. Fortunately the police patrol was in the area. They gave “Jackal” a nice lift home, so he was able to enter his house on his knees. 
Later he was sentenced for few years of prison.
*One mistake - the nazi webpage was “RedWatch” for sure, maybe also a “Blood & Honor”, but I need to check it
Firefly , this thread is not provocation.
We have the serious theme for discussion.
There is such problem exist In Russia.
They have interactions, they send members to each other to meetings where they are exchanged the experience.
How do you think in Russia was appeared american-british Combat 18.
They have the same programs and aims.
I’m just wondering why you’re more worried about a fringe, splinter group in the UK/US than you are about some of your own countries problems.
We do proscecute them here. For instance: The Order
This’s interesting information Kovalski.
I nothing knew about polish extremists.
Today in Russia governmant try to limit extremist party like RNU or National-bolsheviks.
Some active members was arrested. I am not sure that this can be just “political show”. But it’s need to do someting with extremists who kill or beat the peoples of another rase.
There is a joke - OMON suppressed the masochist meeting. Both sides dreamed of such pleasure for a long time :mrgreen:
Okay gov’t, but laws too weak. Return of death sentences wanted by most people for perverts, child-killers and terrorists. Much more harsh laws against corruption is badly needed too. For example there is death sentence for corruption in China - look at their industrial growth.
Vladimir Putin is perceived by many in the West to be an Authoritarian “strongman” that uses censorship, biasedly targeted investigations of dissident groups, and espionage to attack political rivals and to silence dissent.
Do you have any concern for what, for example, Russians think about Bush or Blair? We have a similar zero interest in what you think about Putin or Russia.
Putin has no need to attack political rivals at all, from 1998 his rating was always extremly high. It’s difficult to find a man which thinks he is a bad president. And contrary to fairytales your press pouring in you about freedom of speech in evil Russia you can think, say or print whatever you want as long as this is not fascism or such. There are several politicians and media which critisize Putin in any way they can (but these media are owned by Berezovsky which in hot company with Chechen terrorist is welcomed in UK - surprise, surprise).
What does Cheven and Sneaksie think of this, I’ve noticed they’ve consciously avoid mention of their fearless ex-KGB Vlad the Impaler! Isn’t he a sort of fascist? Yet his semi-police state fails to prosecute supposedly simpleton skinheads and the Russian mob? Interesting.
What Impaler? What do you mean by fascist? You better answer for your words.
Semi-police state? It would be good - less crime, but, sadly, Russia is not a police state at all.
Both of you seem to imply a double standard. And I find it hysterically ironic that people from a country carrying out a War of vicious atrocities in Chechnya and with a gov’t that has effectively suspended basic civil rights should be mentioning anybody else’s’ countries without examining their own.
Before accusing us in double standards, read your press. What last good or at least neutral thing about Russia have you read? When it was? Look at mirror too.
What atrocities from federal side? From bandits - many. Did you see video when bandit slowly cut the neck of agonizing Russian soldier in front of the camera? Find some other ‘hysterically ironic’ thing in your cozy UK and don’t post nonsence about things you know nothing about.
Except for the laws he selectively “uses” against political enemies.
Do you have any concern for what, for example, Russians think about Bush or Blair? We have a similar zero interest in what you think about Putin or Russia.
Then why did you reply. The whole point of this thread is about fascism. Is Putin a democratic leader at this point? Bush and Blair are democratically elected and their unpopular terms are nearing a close. I could also care less about your uninformed, factless concepts of America that you repeated earlier.
Putin has no need to attack political rivals at all, from 1998 his rating was always extremely high. It’s difficult to find a man which thinks he is a bad president. And contrary to fairytales your press pouring in you about freedom of speech in evil Russia you can think, say or print whatever you want as long as this is not fascism or such. There are several politicians and media which critisize Putin in any way they can (but these media are owned by Berezovsky which in hot company with Chechen terrorist is welcomed in UK - surprise, surprise).
Which is why he’s shut down newspapers critical of him? And jailed the former owner of Yukos oil mainly because he was a political rival, and covered up latent incompetence regarding the Belsan School terror outrage and killed over 100 of his own citizens in the Moscow Theater outrage by denying them proper treatment for the poisonous gas the gov’t piped in, in order to keep the gas type secret?
What Impaler? What do you mean by fascist? You better answer for your words.
Semi-police state? It would be good - less crime, but, sadly, Russia is not a police state at all.
No. It’s a corrupt place. But there are some pretty horrifying things that have taken place in Chechnya but Russian soldiers against “bandits.”
Before accusing us in double standards, read your press. What last good or at least neutral thing about Russia have you read? When it was? Look at mirror too.
What atrocities from federal side? From bandits - many. Did you see video when bandit slowly cut the neck of agonizing Russian soldier in front of the camera? Find some other ‘hysterically ironic’ thing in your cozy UK and don’t post nonsence about things you know nothing about.
I’m not the one that started this thread that singled out Americans as especially prone to Nazism. And you are the one that seeks to minimize the threat of violent extremists in his country, not me. Yes, I did in fact see the Chechen resistance fighter murder the Russian soldier, and was appalled by it. But it doesn’t excuse the wiping out of large sections of the Chechen population by the security forces and the routine extrajudicial abductions and killings there.
Why Bush is ignoring the latest Russian crackdown.
By Kim Iskyan
Updated Wednesday, Sept. 24, 2003, at 7:29 AM ETRussia’s role in the war on terrorism will be at the top of the agenda when U.S. President George W. Bush meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin later this week. Bush wants Russian troops in Iraq, help with North Korea, and cooperation with derailing Iran’s nuclear aspirations. In return, he’ll illustrate the harsh reality behind U.S. rhetoric about promoting democracy by largely ignoring the ways in which Putin has been undermining its foundations in Russia.
Putin, a former head of Russia’s intelligence agency, has done a lot right since he became president in early 2000, taking Russia off the list of countries that can’t seem to get their act together. Unlike Boris Yeltsin, his predecessor, Putin doesn’t change prime ministers as often as he changes his socks, resulting in a relatively tranquil political environment. Although economic disparities remain enormous, and a small group of oligarchs dominates the economy, Russia is in the midst of its fifth consecutive year of economic growth, inflation is under control, and the ruble—once the currency equivalent of a late-night-show punch line—is strong. Perhaps more important, Putin has made Russia’s progress toward a market economy almost irreversible, in part through a string of impressive economic reforms, like implementing a flat tax, and a range of other important changes to the country’s economic infrastructure, such as land, pension, judicial, and labor reforms.
Putin’s dark side—the one that Bush will pretend to not see—is his budding authoritarianism and his ever-closer association with the siloviki, a powerful group of former KGB and law enforcement officials. Putin has severely limited freedom of expression: Reporters Without Borders ranks Russia 121st out of 139 countries in its worldwide press freedom index, and a few months ago Russia’s last independent national TV network was replaced with a state-sponsored sports channel in a final blow to national private television. Putin has made meddling in the electoral process an art and destroyed any attempt to balance power between branches of government. The brutal war in the breakaway territory of Chechnya regularly features astonishing infringements of basic human rights.
Here are some more links:
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chechnya/chech_rep.html
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGEUR460382005
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61671.htm
And you guys are worried about NeoNazism in America? “What’s up” with Russia?
I think that this “discussion” is detrimental for our Forum…
No comments …
Lancer44
What can I say about guys who think that America is the source of all NeoNazism, yet ignore and minimize the violence in their own country as just a few hooligans?
When he did it?
Then why did you reply. The whole point of this thread is about fascism. Is Putin a democratic leader at this point? Bush and Blair are democratically elected and their unpopular terms are nearing a close. I could also care less about your uninformed, factless concepts of America that you repeated earlier.
This thread is about fascism and i don’t see any connection between fascism and Putin. Yes Putin is democratic leader. He was democraticaly elected twice. What factless concepts of America i made? I only said that it is strange for me that Nazi is a legal party in US.
Which is why he’s shut down newspapers critical of him?
This is an example of propaganda which i still not understand. Ask anyone from Russia “Which newspapers Putin closed?” and the answer will be “No newspapers”. There are several media which critisize Putin but they are alive and OK.
And jailed the former owner of Yukos oil mainly because he was a political rival,
He was jailed for tax evasion, exactly like Al Capone - because other charges could not be proved. He didn’t pay millions of dollars of tax. It’s a mystery why he got such an fan-base in the West being criminal with high ambitions and nothing more. It seems you in the West consider anyone sentenced in Russia as opressed hero. Why? Truth is much simpler, leave conspiracies for kids.
and covered up latent incompetence regarding the Belsan School terror outrage and killed over 100 of his own citizens in the Moscow Theater outrage by denying them proper treatment for the poisonous gas the gov’t piped in, in order to keep the gas type secret?
It was Putin who denied them treatment? Why blame Putin for everything? Gas itself was not secret, secret was an fact that it will be used. Because of that medics were not ready for 100+ knocked out people. Entire operation was made possible by use of gas - there were several terrorists with detonators scattered around entire theater.
No. It’s a corrupt place. But there are some pretty horrifying things that have taken place in Chechnya but Russian soldiers against “bandits.”
That’s why i wrote that death sentence for corruption is needed, like in China.
Which atrocities commited Russian soldiers? Facts please and not propaganda from terrorist speaker in UK.
Yes, I did in fact see the Chechen resistance fighter murder the Russian soldier, and was appalled by it. But it doesn’t excuse the wiping out of large sections of the Chechen population by the security forces and the routine extrajudicial abductions and killings there.
Security did not wiped Chechen population. You are talking about genocide here. I wrote my opinion about Chechnya in thread about communist ideology after Dani’s request and you can read it there if you wish. Routine abductions and killings took place during de-facto independence of Chechnya and were state-level.
Yes, when he did it.
This thread is about fascism and i don’t see any connection between fascism and Putin. Yes Putin is democratic leader. He was democraticaly elected twice. What factless concepts of America i made? I only said that it is strange for me that Nazi is a legal party in US.
And then apologized for the Russian skinheads, which are statistically more violent than US Nazis, which are closely monitored. And the Nazi party isn’t “legal,” they cannot run for elections. But yes, they can protest and wear uniforms.
Which is why he’s shut down newspapers critical of him?
This is an example of propaganda which i still not understand. Ask anyone from Russia “Which newspapers Putin closed?” and the answer will be “No newspapers”. There are several media which critisize Putin but they are alive and OK.
Then why is Russia one of the worst countries regarding freedom of the press according to Media Watch? Are they run by “Chechen bandits” too?
He was jailed for tax evasion, exactly like Al Capone - because other charges could not be proved. He didn’t pay millions of dollars of tax. It’s a mystery why he got such an fan-base in the West being criminal with high ambitions and nothing more. It seems you in the West consider anyone sentenced in Russia as opressed hero. Why? Truth is much simpler, leave conspiracies for kids.
I’ve read the charges were trumped up or given exaggerated attention whilst Putin’s supporters transgressions are ignored. He only was charged after posing a threat to Putin.
It was Putin who denied them treatment? Why blame Putin for everything? Gas itself was not secret, secret was an fact that it will be used. Because of that medics were not ready for 100+ knocked out people. Entire operation was made possible by use of gas - there were several terrorists with detonators scattered around entire theater.
Moscow doctors said they asked, and were not told what kind of gas was used. They could have administered the correct antidote had they been told, and saved many of the victims.
That’s why i wrote that death sentence for corruption is needed, like in China.
Which will be charged as “corrupt?” Corrupt enemies while corrupt political friends go free?
Which atrocities commited Russian soldiers? Facts please and not propaganda from terrorist speaker in UK.
They were listed, read the Amnesty report about disappearances of those that have filed grievances.
Security did not wiped Chechen population. You are talking about genocide here. I wrote my opinion about Chechnya in thread about communist ideology after Dani’s request and you can read it there if you wish. Routine abductions and killings took place during de-facto independence of Chechnya and were state-level.
I didn’t use the word genocide, because that is not the Russian aim. It’s “pacification.” I used the words extrajudicial killing, as in assassinations. And I’m not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent.
I can quite believe that he’s guilty. It does however look rather suspect when various robber barons get away scot-free for years and then get nailed as soon as they are percieved to be upsetting Putin. It may just be that the Kremlin needs better spin doctors to get the truth out in the west, but I can’t help but suspect that some aspects of the old Soviet system live on and some guys are getting away with fraud just so long as they toe the party line.
Nick , stop the hysteria.
We talk about neo-nazism here.
What can I say about guys who think that America is the source of all NeoNazism, yet ignore and minimize the violence in their own country as just a few hooligans?
nobody told that “America is the source of all NeoNazism”
But i wonder how quietly American authorities look at the Nazis. Honestly ,American Nazis do not interest me. Me it disturbs that Russian nationalists use a rich American experience.
When attempt to stop them they shout about the “freedom of speech”.
People , who has in its regulations calls to the violence above other people.- they strongly require the observance of civil liberties for itself.
Don’t wonder it to you?
And then apologized for the Russian skinheads, which are statistically more violent than US Nazis, which are closely monitored. And the Nazi party isn’t “legal,” they cannot run for elections. But yes, they can protest and wear uniforms
Where do you read this “statistic”. I told you than russians skin are no more than 15 000.(While) this much less than in US or GB. This threat wile not seriouse, but in increase.
US nazi cannot rut the selections, but some brainless adolescents, after looking on US nazi, can take gun and kill their classmates.
Member of NSM near Wite House, Wasington 2002.
Seems, American government is too occupied with the concern about “democracy in entire peace”, that even it does not see extremists near its windows.
It’s “pacification.” I used the words extrajudicial killing, as in assassinations. And I’m not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent
Do you heare something about “pacification” in Iraq. I can show you some interesting photo .
And we will compare the different method of “pacification.” in Chechnij and Iraq. OK?
P.S. I proposed you to have a talk quietly about the Putin’s policy, you it refused. Instead of this you preferred to pour out all of propagandistic bullshit of Western media.
He is guilty. He for the trifle purchased active of YUKOS in 1995-96. And then it attempted to underpay taxes.
I agree, that this “chosen justice”.
I don’t like this situation. But I know real life in Russia and support the majority of the decisions of Putin. He causes respect in young people.
I aggre that corruption is here. But this is not the Putin’s problem. This appeared in 1989-91 and than grou up. This common problem in modern world.
Why, if they are legal and there is freedom of speech and stuff? What prevents them from running for elections then?
Then why is Russia one of the worst countries regarding freedom of the press according to Media Watch?
I honestly don’t know. Ask this Media Watch. Maybe you wouldn’t trust everything you hear about Russia? I tell you what i see myself - there are media which critisize Putin. Almost copies of Wall Street Journal - same stuff about authoritarian Putin oppressing freedom.
I’ve read the charges were trumped up or given exaggerated attention whilst Putin’s supporters transgressions are ignored. He only was charged after posing a threat to Putin.
I heard rumors that he was charged when he tried to sell YUKOS to unnamed foreign company. Neverthless, he is VERY far from being democratic hero fighting evil authoritarian state.
Moscow doctors said they asked, and were not told what kind of gas was used. They could have administered the correct antidote had they been told, and saved many of the victims.
People which died, died from suffocation because of retching while unconsious in medical cars en-route to hospital. This was because of poorly organized evacuation and treatment in first minutes after succesful storming. Medics are responsible for errors not less than others. I doubt they could find an antidote for a secret military grade knockout gas in a matter of hour or so even if they were told exact formula of the gas. People died not from gas itself - it’s not lethal, it was designed to knockout, not to kill - but from it’s consequences due to poor aid. It seems that medics were trying to make excuses for themselves by claiming about they could save everybody if they knew the formula. Neverthless, most of the doomed people in theater were saved.
And I’m not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent.
War and innocence are very far apart. Those soldiers which commited crimes were court-martialed. But their crimes, while severe in some cases, are uncomparable to crimes of terrorists which i hope you’ll never about.
American authorities are stringent towards the Nazis, if you did an honest search, you’d find that many have called the ATF/FBI overzealous towards individuals such as Randy Weaver, where snipers shot his wife in a standoff.
And calls for specific acts of violence can be prosecuted as conspiracy, inciting a riot, etc. So they rarely advocate specific actions, just big stupid ideas.
And again, why are you lecturing Americans when I’ve clearly documented links between your authoritarian gov’t and Russian fascist/communist groups advocating violence?
Where do you read this “statistic”. I told you than russians skin are no more than 15 000.(While) this much less than in US or GB. This threat wile not seriouse, but in increase.
US nazi cannot rut the selections, but some brainless adolescents, after looking on US nazi, can take gun and kill their classmates.
Member of NSM near Wite House, Wasington 2002.
Seems, American government is too occupied with the concern about “democracy in entire peace”, that even it does not see extremists near its windows.
Again with the photos that are supposed to represent something?:rolleyes: So what? A few assholes are in front of the White House, go there anytime and you’ll find a protest. What is the worst that will happen? And again, Russia has its own problems with violence that goes beyond 20,000 (actually) skinheads. And how do you know “this is much less” than the UK or US? You’re full of it! There are numerous extremist groups in Russia. And to be fair, by population numbers, the US could have up 30,000 to 40,000 skinheads comparatively, and I doubt there are really that many here (and not all skins are Nazis, many are in fact anti-fascist and left wing, or are anti-drug “straight edge kids.”)
Do you heare something about “pacification” in Iraq. I can show you some interesting photo .
And we will compare the different method of “pacification.” in Chechnij and Iraq. OK?P.S. I proposed you to have a talk quietly about the Putin’s policy, you it refused. Instead of this you preferred to pour out all of propagandistic bullshit of Western media.
“Pacification” of Iraq? LOL No, I hear of no such concept since Iraq is far from pacified, and I do not support my gov’ts actions there, nor did I vote for George Bush (either time). But Iraq at least has the pretension of “liberating” people from a dictator whereas Chechnya is a left over conflict of Russian and post-Soviet colonial domination.
And I’ll discuss whatever I want in any thread I want, especially when it is related to the discussion. LOL Yeah, it’s all just a Western media invention, huh? Says the guy that posts random pics of Nazi-Americans as a greater representation.
I believe the parties cannot get on the ballot because they do not have enough political support (not enough petition signatures). But I am not sure, but I’ve never seen the ‘Nazi party’ on an election ballot.
BTW, how many political parties in the Russian Rep. would you say advocate extreme nationalist/communist ideas?
I honestly don’t know. Ask this Media Watch. Maybe you wouldn’t trust everything you hear about Russia? I tell you what i see myself - there are media which critisize Putin. Almost copies of Wall Street Journal - same stuff about authoritarian Putin oppressing freedom.
Perhaps, but it is known that Putin has shut down virtually all critical TV news of him. Did he not convert an independent news channel into a sports network?
I heard rumors that he was charged when he tried to sell YUKOS to unnamed foreign company. Neverthless, he is VERY far from being democratic hero fighting evil authoritarian state.
But yet he only became a villain after publicly criticizing Putin and stating that he was to run for office. Most people would regard that as just a little suspicious.
People which died, died from suffocation because of retching while unconsious in medical cars en-route to hospital. This was because of poorly organized evacuation and treatment in first minutes after succesful storming. Medics are responsible for errors not less than others. I doubt they could find an antidote for a secret military grade knockout gas in a matter of hour or so even if they were told exact formula of the gas. People died not from gas itself - it’s not lethal, it was designed to knockout, not to kill - but from it’s consequences due to poor aid. It seems that medics were trying to make excuses for themselves by claiming about they could save everybody if they knew the formula. Nevertheless, most of the doomed people in theater were saved.
Fine, it was a terrible tragedy and an indefensible terror outrage, we’ll leave it at that.
War and innocence are very far apart. Those soldiers which commited crimes were court-martialed. But their crimes, while severe in some cases, are uncomparable to crimes of terrorists which i hope you’ll never about.
We hear about both, but you have to pay attention hard here to get news on Chechnya. But it’s been a conflict which has long fascinated me for some reason. Unfortunately, there seem to be few good guys in the whole thing. And I am not anti-Russian. I cheered as much as anybody when they got that bastard Basayev.
But Russia has been rather ruthless in Chechnya nevertheless.