cool conceptual paintings of "super-weapons"

Utter tripe! :roll:[/quote]

IIRC the Germans did have a prototype of the “flying-wing” design by Horten which was poached by the Americans after the end of the war ending up ferreted away in the Smithsonian. When Jack Northrop was working on his flying-wing prototype bomber after the war he apparently went and had a look at the German design.
The Germans had lots of pie-in-the-sky weapon plans and one of them was for an intercontinental bomber based on this flying wing, the so-called Amerika Bomber. Like most of these systems they’d left it much too late to start thinking about long range bombers.
It may be apocryphal but I’m sure I’ve read or seen a programme that mentioned the low radar observability of the flying wing design although I don’t recall whether it refered to the Horten or the Northrop. I’m fairly certain that much of Northrop’s work made it into the B2 Spirit stealth bomber and he is supposed to have seen an early B2 test flight before his death in the early 1980s.

There’s a German “vapourware” website devoted to the planned advanced Luftwaffe designs called Luft46:http://www.luft46.com/. Check out the Junkers ground attack plane that’s very reminiscent of the A-10.[/quote]

My comment wasnt aimed at the aircraft in particular, it was aimed at the fact that the nazis could develop the A-Bomb and put it in an aircraft that would be hard put to make it 200 miles, never mind across the Atlantic.

They’d probably have done better developing a decent four engined prop aircraft to deliver it. Can you imagine what sort of monster a jet flying wing would need to be to deliver an atomic bomb across the Atlantic? They only just managed it with the B-2 and the unit cost was enormous even by modern USAF standards and with the benefit of inflight refuelling.

Why DID the Germans never develop a credible heavy bomber?

“My comment wasnt aimed at the aircraft in particular, it was aimed at the fact that the nazis could develop the A-Bomb and put it in an aircraft that would be hard put to make it 200 miles, never mind across the Atlantic.”

The germans already built an ultra-long range bomber.

The Junkers Ju 390 was a long-range derivative of the Junkers Ju 290 and was intended to be used as a heavy transport, maritime patrol aircraft, and bomber. It was a design selected for the abortive Amerika Bomber project.

Two prototypes were created by inserting an extra pair of inner wing segments into the wings of basic Ju 290 airframes and adding new sections to “stretch” the fuselages. The resulting giant first flew on October 20, 1943 and performed well, resulting in an order for 26 such aircraft, to be designated Ju 390A-1. None of these were actually built by the time that the project was cancelled (along with Ju 290 production) in mid 1944. The maritime patrol version and bomber were to be designated Ju 390B and Ju 390C respectively. It was suggested that the bomber could have carried the Messerschmitt Me 328 parasite fighter for self-defence. Some test flights are believed to have been performed by Ju-390 aircraft with the anti-shipping Fritz-X guided smart-bomb.

Disputed New York flight in 1944

There is a heavily disputed claim that in January 1944, a Ju-390 prototype made a trans-atlantic flight from Mont-de-Marsan (near Bordeaux) to some 20 km (12 miles) of the coast of the United States and back. Critics claim FAGr.5 (Fernaufklärungsgruppe 5) never flew such a flight. Supporters say the only link between FAGr.5 and the New York flight is the common use of an airfield at Mont-de-Marsan and the veracity of the New York flight is neither proved nor disproved by a lack of unit records for such a flight. Indeed the flight may have had nothing whatsoever to do with FAGr.5 operations.

Whilst the Ju-390’s 32-hour endurance would have certainly made such a crossing theoretically possible, there is a lack of evidence to support the claim. Aviation historian Horst Zoeller claims the flight was recorded in Junkers company records.

Critics have also pointed to the vagueness of the aircraft’s alleged position and even the date of what would have been a milestone flight. The best known (and maybe earliest publication) of the claim in English was in William Green’s Warplanes of the Third Reich in 1970, where he wrote that the Ju 390 flew to “a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York”. Critics say the vagueness of detail and lack of corroborating evidence are hallmarks of an urban legend.

Critics believe that the aircraft would have had to overfly parts of the Massachusetts coast in order to fix their location, and point out the likelihood of the aircraft being spotted by observers and/or radar, which it was not. If New York state were meant, this would have put the aircraft closer to Boston. Critics ask why this city wasn’t referred to for fixing the position of the claim. Finally, it is questioned how the aircrew would have been able to fix their position so accurately anyway.

Supporters argue that a Ju-390 crew could have obtained a highly accurate fix from public broadcast radio stations. Also that a Ju-390 would not have needed to overfly Massachusetts at all. They say there was no reason why New York City could not have been approached purely from the sea.

Supporters also note that the mission was designed to deliver a single bomb to New York and that such a bomb could only have been the atomic weapon under development. Japan and Germany at the time were using the “Harteck Process” of gaseous uranium centrifuges. Germany in 1944 was shipping both uranium ores and centrifuges to Japan by U-boat.

Supporters of the New York flight say of course the mission was kept secret so as not to tip off the US Government to provide better air defences. It was an ultra top secret test flight for the delivery of an atomic bomb.

Corroboration is gleened from the so-called Silbervogel sub-orbital bomber designed to attack New York from space with only a single bomb. Only one type of bomb was worth all the time and expense involved. Supporters say a mission so secret would never have found its way into FAGr.5 logbooks.

Supporters note the top secret unit, II/KG200 also flew the Ju-390 as did Junkers company test pilots in Czechoslovakia.

Following the war, Hitler’s armaments minister Albert Speer also recounted to author James P O’Donnell that a Ju-390 aircraft flown by Junkers test pilots flew a polar route to Japan in 1944.

Very interesting! Thank you very much.

But it still leaves a burning question in my mind - why did they never try for a credible strategic bomber? One they could have had in sufficient numbers to attack achievable targets for achievable results (nuking New York not being achievable due to their lack of atomic weapons of course). It’s always puzzled me. While the Allies progressed their four engined heavies to be increasingly formidable weapons, the Luftwaffe was very much toying with large bombers but never really making the serious effort. Why was this? Was it doctrine? Was it ignorance?

Festamus, I think the answer to that is that in his arrogance Hitler belived that the war would be over before such weapons would be needed.

Ah well. Here was me thinking it might be more complex than that! :wink: Cheers! :slight_smile:

i’ve read somewhere that the reason why Goering canceled the heavy bomber projects in mid-1930s was that, from his flawed perspective, that it would not be economical to build 4 -6engine bombers.

He believed that losing a mass of 4-6 engine bombers to flak/fighters would be risking heavy losses of war material and many trained personnel (takes up to 10 people to pilot just one) , and be too costly for the war.

and, after the invasion of russia, germany didn’t have the resources to build a sizeable heavy bomber fleet. the resources had to go to more fighter planes, panzers, u-boats, etc,etc.

thats why they stuck with mediocre 2 engine bombers.

Ironic that Goering should believe the loss of 4-6 engined bombers to be risking heavy losses of war material, while others designed 1000 ton armoured vehicles…

Ah well. There’s no rule that says Madness must have logic!

the nazi governemnt was chaotic. nazis fought each other poltically and bid for power. too much power went into too few people, which were unqualified for the position.

Something that always strikes me is that the way in which effort was being put into concepts that would obviously take years to pay off… as late as 1944/45. By that point the writing was on the wall for Nazi Germany and one would have expected all effort to be poured into items of necessity, yet work persisted on projects which by that stage can only be put down to stoking a sense of technical superiority.

well, by late 1944, even the most fanatical nazis knew that the war was lost, if they continued to fight with the same equipement given the odds.

the only thing they could rely on was super-weapons, like jet-fighters and super-tanks, to win the war.

Oh, I have no doubt that superior equipment being available in 1944/45 would have been great comfort - but what I’m saying is that a lot of this stuff wasn’t even remotely ready and wouldn’t be for some time - years even. They must surely have known, deep down, that they were wasting resources?

desperation can make a man do stupid things…

In fairness to the German engineers and scientists however, perserverence with technological innovations to reinforce defeat contributed to some of some of the more peaceful defining moments of the later half of the 20th Century, if not the history of mankind. e.g. V2 technology’s contribution to the space race and ultimately, putting a man on the moon.

and some of the most diabolical. the V-2 gave way to the ICBM age, where missles armed with nukes can destroy the human race…

Something of an irony that the V2’s advances would only meet their full potential in the hands of the Nazi’s sworn enemy. :?

This thread’s been good… (nobody turned up to spoil it!) I’ve been inspired to do some more digging for oddball aircraft designs from WW2, of all nationalities… Thanks for your thoughts! I might take a closer look at this Ju-290 for starters. Such things appeal to my err, “professional” interests, or at least that’s the excuse I use for finding anything with wings so bloody fascinating!

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2680

http://www.luft46.com/mrart/lufartmr.html

try these, click on all the links in the first one, very interesting

I agree with the fact that this thread has been good, it makes a change to have a good on topic discussion that doesnt involve the pish thats invaded most of the other threads here.

I think that the debate goes further than that, ultimately Hitler as usual is at fault because above all he wanted aircraft numbers, which of course would have been reduced by building 4 engined bombers. Milch was pushing for the 4 engined bomber and Goering hated milch. The usual Nazi infighting wit the usual consequences. Divide and rule is only handy in peacetime I think.

Just to expand the answer you got -

The A39 Tortoise heavy assualt tank was designed (as said) to break through German defensive lines. Although it was massive, it was nowhere near the size of the Ratte tank shown in the pictures. It was 23ft 9in (7.24m) long (hull length - the gun added another 10ft), 12ft 10in (3.91m) wide and 10ft (3.05m) high. It was armed with the 32 pounder gun (a 3.7in/94mm AA gun) and three 7.92mm Besa machine guns. The 32 pounder was easily able to penetrate any armour of any tank used in WW2. The top speed was just 12mph (19.2km/h), and even that was a strain on the Rolls Royce Meteor (a Merlin adapted for tanks). The combat weight was a touch over 174,000 pounds (79,250kg) - 35,000lb heavier than a Chally 2.

The tank was designed in 1942, but the prototypes were not completed until 1947 and by then the idea wasn’t needed and was dropped.

The Germans also tried to develop a similar tank (the Maus), which was almost three times as heavy (414,000lb/188,000kg) with armour between 40mm and 350mm (1.57in - 13.78in) thick. It was to be armed with a 128mm KwK L/55 gun with a 75mm L/36.5 gun coaxial with it. There was also a 20mm cannon, which I think may have been for AA use. The Maus had a similar maximum speed to the Tortoise and was as useless.

I’ve not been able to find any reference to similar American designs in the book I got that information from (Tanks of the World, David Miller, ISBN 1-84065-176-8 ).