I will add your further objections to my research on this subject.
I have found where all the tank production centers were moved to in late
1941, and their subsequent production totals. I’m still working on where the aircraft factories went ( like Sukhoi went to Komsomolsk-on-Amur ).
So far I haven’t been able to find good histories on the Yakovlev, ILyushin, Tupolev and Mikoyan aircraft manufacturers during that period.
Your arguments support the idea that to win, the Germans would have to go deep into the Central Siberian Uplands and prehaps all the way to the Amur. Others argue that the original German plan to just hold all of European Russia west of the Volga was workable; that the loss of Moscow would have fatal political consequences for Stalin’s regime, and that his remaining forces wouldn’t be strong enough to retake Moscow.
At this point I am closer to your point of view than theirs. I think the Soviet state politically could survive the loss of Moscow, primarily because the Nazis were more brutal to the people than the Communists.
If Hitler were more cunning, he would have treated the peasants of the
Ukraine and Byleorussia decently, thus turning them against Stalin. Then, after winning the war, he could do what he liked.
So, under this secnario, with the Germans holding all of Russia west of
the Volga in 1942, who would hold the strategic initiative? One study I read stated that after reaching that point, the Germans would hold 49% of all Russian industrial capacity. Could the Russians merely hold the line at that point, counterattack, or slowly give way to further German offensives? By the way, in regards to resources, two things have become clear so far; 1-the taking of the Grozny and Baku oil fields would have given the germans far more oil than Ploesti contained; 2- the loss of the Caspian Sea area fields would have not deprived the Soviet army of most of it’s oil-plenty exists in Siberia and on the Pacific coast. I was surprised to learn that fully 50% of all Lend-Lease supplies to the U.S.S.R. from America came through Vladivostok. Appearantly, the U.S. convoys flew the Russian flag to avoid Japanese attacks.
You have to remember that Hitler and Germany were under the impression that most Soviet citizens were unhappy and would be glad to see the Germans. As the expression goes…“All you have to do is kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.” I think he was probably aware of the logistics that you are talking about but I dont think he expected them to matter.
And insofar as Bismark to tell the Germans to stay out of a war with Russia…well that didnt happen. George Washington told Americans to alway stay out of European affiars. Especially alliances…well that didnt happen either. 
This is more offen mistake… If you sutied history of USSR, you must know the such called “5-years plans”. This is a parts of industry growth. The first 5-y.p. was to build a huge resource base with Siberia mines. Second - industry for building technics (in Siberia too), and only 3-rd(last before war) Soviet mading a war factories. Stalin them build near Poland and Romania border, for easiest transfer in the “liberation” war in Europe, targeted to conquer Europe. But with suddenly attack of Hitler, they los all prepaired items. For example, in the first 2 days of war Soviet army lost more than 2 800 trains with ammo!!! And loss of many war factories was an very strong hit to Red Army, but they don’t loss the industry power! And the many of it was very quickly (less then year) reconstructed in Siberia. One more thing - all Soviet ammo and technics alwas was specialy modifiad for mass production. All technics was cheap and easy to products. More than that - date of begin recieving Lend Lease supplies - June 1939! 2 years before war between Soviet and German, and 2 month before WW2. And not only USA make this “postcards”. Interasting facts: 1940. War between German and England. The England send ammo to Soviet (Soviet is neutral) and Hitler - send like a present to Stalin new cruiser, later named “Tashkent”, also known as “light-blue leader”… With such intensive supplies from USA (Pacific way) and England (Nordic way) losses of war factories not so hard as can be… About captured oil plants - they captured not plans - only ruins of them. And for its powerful industry productivity, Hitler spend more than year and a lot of money… Very long period, imho. But most rich oil plants - of the Russia is in the regions between Ural and Siberia…
You have to remember that Hitler and Germany were under the impression that most Soviet citizens were unhappy and would be glad to see the Germans. As the expression goes…“All you have to do is kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.” I think he was probably aware of the logistics that you are talking about but I dont think he expected them to matter.
And insofar as Bismark to tell the Germans to stay out of a war with Russia…well that didnt happen. George Washington told Americans to alway stay out of European affiars. Especially alliances…well that didnt happen either. :)[/quote]
No. People of Ukraine don’t like Stalin, it’s true… But I personally know many russians veterans of ww2 who love Staling with open heart. Maybe this nonsense, but people of Russia loved Stalin, and th Hitler had no chance to initiate uprising.
I think if you go swimming off the coast of Normandy (Omaha beach) you will find plenty of swimming US tanks. The swimming tanks at Utah beach did much better and many made it ashore. Im sure the Germans could have developed one. The americans tanks where hastely thrown together.
[quote=“Gen_Sandworm”]
I think if you go swimming off the coast of Normandy (Omaha beach) you will find plenty of swimming US tanks. The swimming tanks at Utah beach did much better and many made it ashore. Im sure the Germans could have developed one. The americans tanks where hastely thrown together.[/quote]
Maybe my bad english… I mean, in period of WW2 only Soviet had swimming tanks. And do you think it’s easy to develope new type of tank for country without experience of such development?
I think if you go swimming off the coast of Normandy (Omaha beach) you will find plenty of swimming US tanks. The swimming tanks at Utah beach did much better and many made it ashore. Im sure the Germans could have developed one. The americans tanks where hastely thrown together.[/quote]
Maybe my bad english… I mean, in period of WW2 only Soviet had swimming tanks. And do you think it’s easy to develope new type of tank for country without experience of such development?[/quote]
Here is a picture of one of the WW2 American DD tanks used at the invasion of Normandy.
So you can see its a Sherman converted so that it can swim. Like i said these were quick a solution to getting the tanks ashore. Im sure the Germans could have developed something similar to invade England. This may not be a true swimming tank but as you can see it does swim…and does the job.
I can’t call THIS swimming tank… Japanese also using baloons to transfer tanks across the rivers, but can you tell me the swimming speed of such constuction? La-Manche is not a pond, and wind and weather can destroy any tanks without specially adopted to swim.
Gen. Sandworm “Forbidden page”
Anyway the Allies did have tanks that could go in alot of water. Even the Churchhill tank fitted with flamethrowers were used in DDay.
Picture Fixed.
Okay
1 the Shermans were realeased about a mile or more (1mile=1.6km) off the shore. So for me this does a pretty good job at swimming.
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All tanks are going to be unloading by the navy in an amfibious assault.
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Im sure this russian tank was good (i know nothing about it so please provide info) but i seriously doubt that they will be crossing the english channel by themselves. If so Com. Ombrok please hop in one and cross the atlantic. I suggest landing in washington and taking interstate 64 to Indiana. Once there we will bask in all its glory :lol:
Point is… I dont really see the difference?
And you have to admit that IF the Germans had a decent navy they could have deployed something like this to invade England. Anyhow dont want to get to off topic.
to 1) 1.6 km/h Pathetic… The speed of water streams in La-Manshe more than 10 km/h. And it don’t constant at any places. Even experienced sailors can’t make a course with this conditions… In water, tanks wich don’t designed for swim can’t shot - firs shot will be last shot… Hitler has no cover for this crossing, his fleet was awful to compare with british. Submarines - in first period of war was good, but first ability of submarine - hideness, and they not designed for such cover operations…
to 3) Most seried russian swimming tank was PT-6, this tank was produced number of 4000. That was a light tank with anti-bullet armor, and gun 35mm. Technical characteristics is such PzKw-III, but PT-6 have a diesel engine, and swimming speed 9-12 km/h!!! They was tested on Onezhskoe and Ladozhskoe lakes (largest lakes in the world, even sailors call that lakes “trap for Ship”) And that tanks was crossed more than 400 km of water… THIS tank can cross La-Manshe. But best swimming tank of the WW2 is a T-28P. Series of this tank was small, near 300-400, and the production of it was canceled after German attack. This tank was dsigned for offense, not for defense. The swimming speed of it was 12-15 km/h!!!
And this not offtopic. This discussion is a proof, that German have no units to invade British.
to 1) 1.6 km/h Pathetic… The speed of water streams in La-Manshe more than 10 km/h. And it don’t constant at any places. Even experienced sailors can’t make a course with this conditions… In water, tanks wich don’t designed for swim can’t shot - firs shot will be last shot… Hitler has no cover for this crossing, his fleet was awful to compare with british. Submarines - in first period of war was good, but first ability of submarine - hideness, and they not designed for such cover operations…
to 3) Most seried russian swimming tank was PT-6, this tank was produced number of 4000. That was a light tank with anti-bullet armor, and gun 35mm. Technical characteristics is such PzKw-III, but PT-6 have a diesel engine, and swimming speed 9-12 km/h!!! They was tested on Onezhskoe and Ladozhskoe lakes (largest lakes in the world, even sailors call that lakes “trap for Ship”) And that tanks was crossed more than 400 km of water… THIS tank can cross La-Manshe. But best swimming tank of the WW2 is a T-28P. Series of this tank was small, near 300-400, and the production of it was canceled after German attack. This tank was dsigned for offense, not for defense. The swimming speed of it was 12-15 km/h!!!
And this not offtopic. This discussion is a proof, that German have no units to invade British.[/quote]
Impressive but where any of these tanks used in reall battle effectively?
This is a tragedy of this tanks… They was designed for conqueror Europe and Britain, but sudden Hitler attack ruined all plans… This tank was used in defense - but this isn’t their strong side… With only anti-bullet armor, they was easy terget in defense positions… That tank was a tool of agressive attack, they must to surround points of heavy defence without battles, or make a deep invasions behind fronlines… Something like Hitler made in France… In a defensive war they was unusable…
So Russia really wanted to take over Europe from the beggining?
Yep. Stalin was a godfather of Hitler in reality. Stalin trained germans officer in Liepetsk, give Hitler about 30 millions dollars by gold… Many things… The idea was simply - German initiate the WW2, and Stalin “liberate” the Europe, weakened by Hitler… The date of the begining “liberation war” was 6 Jule 1941. Two weeks later after Hitler invasion to Russia. Most war losses of Soviet was because of it. Landing sites of planes was 4-5 kilometrers near border. They must take a high on the German territory. Huge numbers of ammo and soldiers was in trains near border… They can’t drop tanks from trains at easy… Huge numbers of planes, tanks, and fuel was burned in first wave of bombardment…
Now this is really interesting. This is the first time I’ve heard an exact invasion date for Stalin’s ‘liberation of Europe’. I had thought he was going to wait until spring of '42, when he would have enough T-34’s.
Experts had noted that in June of '41, that Stalin’s troop dispositions made
little sense if he wanted merely to defend. Of special interest were the large forces he placed in or near Bessarabia; I’m sure he knew that if he
quickly took the oil fields at Ploesti in Rumania, Hitler’s war machine would
starve for fuel.
True!!
Yep. That was a plan. Most of light and fast tanks was grouped in direction to Ploeshti. About 5000 BT tanks and more than lots on infantry. If the war was begin on Stalin’s scenario, the oil plants of Ploehsti was be destroyed in a 3-5 hours. Easy way to win a war…
Romanian Army secured the Ploiesti oilfields from 23rd of August 1944.
Anyway, the fact the Romanian Army switched the side in August 1944 helped a lot Red Army!!!
Also I have to mention that Romanian Royal Army fought together with Red Army in Hungary and Czechoslovakia from October '44 till May '45.
King Michael (Mihai) was awarded by Stalin with “Order of Victory (Pobeda)”.
As I know, only 2 foreign persons received this award from Stalin:
Dwight Eisenhower and King Michael of Romania!!!