Could German have won World War 2?

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#121

I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by runway. At this time for fighter aircrafts the runways were grass and any field would do. It was the infrastructure that they could destroy but sqns were dispersed and it only made admin difficult not impossible.

As far as I am aware there was only one attack on Radar and that was not very effective as the Germans did not know how significant it was.

The UK also had fighter sqns in reserve and more pilots coming on line very quickly. You are right in that if an RAF pilot is shot down and survives he will be back on duty very quickl, if he is German he is invited to stay at His Majesties Pleasure.

edited for grammar

#122

Also, while the British fighters were operating right over their own bases, the Germans had to fly for quite a distance until they reached their targets. Especially the Me 109 was quickly running out of fuel and had to break off contact to fly home, leaving the German bombers unescorted.

Jan

#123

I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by runway. At this time for fighter aircrafts the runways were grass and any field would do. It was the infrastructure that they could destroy but sqns were dispersed and it only made admin difficult not impossible.

As the holder of a BA in History with a concentration in 20th Century Europe and as an individual with a lifelong interest in World War Two, I am quite aware of what constituted a runway during the Battle of Britain. My point in this thread is that the Battle of Britain was a bit closer than everybody seems to think. Maybe because it has become legend. The history of Western Europe rested on the outcome of this battle. It really could have went either way. It was tactically a draw but represented a strategic victory for GB. It demonstrated to FDR that GB would continue to fight and swayed US public opinion in favor of the Lend/Lease Acts and the destroyer deal.

#124

Just a hint, but several of the people you’re arguing with have I suspect got somewhat higher/more relevant degrees. In my own case, I’ve flown off several of the runways that were in use at the time and flown over rather more, so have something of an idea what they were like.

Oh, and the only notable attack on a radar station during the BoB was on Ventnor (Isle of Wight). Since the station kept transmitting (although the receivers were wrecked) the Germans concluded the attack was unsuccessful and discontinued all further attacks on radar stations.
The point you’re missing is that there was (and to an extent still is) sweet FA worth bombing in the south-east of England. Hence, if the RAF was in trouble it could simply withdraw and leave the Luftwaffe to try and cut down the quality of the beer by bombing the hop fields. There’s virtually nothing else for them to hit!

#125

Oh get over it and don’t tell me what I do and don’t know. I have an informed differing opinion of your informed differing opinion. That’s fine and there’s nothing wrong with it. Show a little respect for other people’s opinions instead of assuming you are the be all do all know all of WW2 history.

#126

Calm down!

It’s a discussion forum. Pdf has disagreed with you in no uncertain terms. That’s a good opportunity for you to post your counter-arguments and the debate continues, not start verbal abuse of other site members. As for pomposity, the first person to flash their credentials on this thread wasn’t pdf.

On another note, could you be described using the words ‘Ferrous’ and ‘Male’? You increasingly remind me of someone I know from somewhere.

#127

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=103&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

As wildboar has said the only really important one was the BoB. If Britain had lost this it is unlikely that the US would have entered the war. Lend lease would have stopped to the USSR and Germany could have directed all its efforts to Russia. Normandy could not happen with out Britain and the Med would have been controlled by the Germens. They would have had access to oil and the black see. India would have gone independent and probably sided with Japan. Australia would have fallen most likely and Japan’s Empire would have been secure. What choice would the US have? The US was isolationist and would have stayed that way.

All the other battles after BoB would not have happened because Germany would have secure flanks.

I had this point some time ago so in general I agree. It is some of the finer points I disagree with.

As for the public wishing for peace, I think you may be thinking more along the lines of the political elite and not the working class, although the socialists where leaning to the Nazi side as they had a pact with the Soviets. There was evidence of unions sabotaging tank production early on in the war, which stopped after the invasion of Russia.

#128

No I don’t think so he/she is not misquoting or posting irrelevant info. :slight_smile:

#129

…am I the bad guy in this? I gave my opinion and somebody told me I didn;t know what the Hell I was talking about. I defend myself and this makes me an instigator? A troublemaker? I mentioned my credentials because I was labelled an idiot because my opinion differed from sombody here. If that’s what happens when your opinion differs, just send me away to the gulag, or the camp or to Gitmo.

#130

Is this a 5 min argument or the full ½ hour?

#131

Another ferrous, male trait: Misrepresenting what was said.

You aren’t the ‘bad guy’, but you are the one who reverted to name-calling first. Pdf suggested that your definition of runway differed from the nature of runways at the time. You defended yourself understanding, quite reasonably. Mentioning your credentials was indeed relevant. It just struck me as rather ironic that you then accuse other users of being pompous, as you flash your degree around. On a review of the thread, the first person to label anyone any idiot was you. That’s another ferrous male trait. Not to mention hypocritical.

As for the frankly ridiculous comments about Gitmo etc, did I not absolutely explicitly state that your best course of action was to reply with reasoned debate? That is certainly not trying to silencce you or ridiculing you because I allegedly disagreed with you. You would find what I say far less offensive if you read my posts before taking offence at what you imagined I wrote.

I didn’t mean to get dragged into this. I was actually trying to defuse what looked like an increasingly heated debate. Read my posts, you’ll find I’ve been nothing like as rude as you imagine - indeed, it seems no one has and you are rather touchy at the moment. The debate on this site is often robust and strongly worded. You’ll have seen that when you looked at some of the older threads to get acquainted with the site. Be a little more thick skinned, and we’ll all get along fine.

#132

Currently reading “Operation Sea Lion” by Peter Fleming. Nowhere near finished yet so not sure if there’s going to be anything of relevance.

I think the obvious response from Fighter Command had the battle gone worse for them would have been to pull back 11 Group’s units to 12 Group’s “patch”. Not ideal but a lot safer to preserve those assets for the time of the invasion.

Pure hypothesis for discussion:

Such a pull back of 11 Group, allowing the Germans easier (but not unopposed) access to the South Coast to prep for the invasion… The invasion starts and the pride of the Wehrmact sets sail in a woefully inadequate “fleet”. Opposition on land is inadequate but then perhaps it only needs to be inadequate (better than non-existant). Royal Navy sets sails on an “all or nothing” mission and within the day is running through the Channel messing up the German’s scarce vessels which NEED to survive more than the first wave of landings to
A) Reinforce
B) Bring the heavier equipment to give the Wehrmacht the edge
C) Resupply

Kriegsmarine opposition will be token. The Germans NEVER maintained a surface fleet capable of standing toe to toe with a serious RN threat. They’d given up on the very idea when they ran to port after Jutland in the first World War. In WWII they had a fleet good for commerce raiding and attacks on small forces, but all the vessels the RN would throw into the channel once the invasion begun?

Even with the advantage in air superiority stakes (it would be contested, not complete - the RAF WOULD be over the Channel, but with longer flight times from 12 Group’s airfields) the Luftwaffe won’t be capable of protecting the surface combatants in the invasion fleet from the Royal Navy. And even if the Royal Navy is terribly mauled by the Luftwaffe in doing so, the German’s invasion fleet would be wiped out long before the RN could be. And with it, the Germany army forces committed to the invasion up to and including the wave onboard at the time!

Put simply - the Germans could not stop a seaborne evacuation from the French side of the channel. They’re even less likely to be able to pull off a seaborne invasion on the other side! They didn’t even start planning for it until mid-1940!

So the RAF “loses” the Battle of Britain in that they are forced to vacate their South East bases. There was a reserve and there were more bases within range of the possible invasion beaches. Britain wins the BoB if Germany doesn’t invade… I don’t see how Germany could successfully invade. In fact, they end up at LOT worse off from trying than Britain does.

Just my thoughts…

#133

Have you seen the one at Popham off the A303, it goes up and down and tilts to one side. Landing must have been fun.

#134

stick to topic please

#135

I did mention somebody considered themself to be the do all be all and end all of WW2 knowledge. And Crab I have no beef with you. Why can’t we all just get along?

#136

A big mac with no beef, say it aint so ( joking ).
Where is ferrous male it’s getting close to 48hr’s since he posted, I’m missing him even though I often have no idea wtf he’s going on about.

#137

Yeah, I’ve flown over it (out of Lasham, just south of Basingstoke). If you want crazy runways, try the Long Mynd for size - the two ends of the runway are about 200ft difference in height, and it’s on the edge of practically a cliff, covered in sheep…

#138

People, please get back to the topic!! :!:

#139

Dani, I’m confused.

Are you referring to my point on airfields in the UK or the lighthearted banter that fills gaps as people think and produce new and exciting posts. If you are sending out “interviews without coffee” you may need to be more critical or we thick infantry types will not understand.

#140

I here a lot of people saying that if they defeated the UK they could probably defeat Russia. Remember: Stalin was not in the dark, he knew Germany would probably invade Soviet Russia, it was just that it was an unexpecting time for him. After all, Communism was Nazism ideological enemy. Stalin thought that Germany would invade only when they defeated Britain. So Stalin would therefore of been prepared for a German onslaught of 4 to 5 million men. :slight_smile: