Could German have won World War 2?

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#161

I believe, yes, the Germans could of won the war. I think the Wehrmacht is, I don’t think they made that mistake during the war, completely overrated.

Look at the facts: the Germans got within 20 miles of the Kremlin in Moscow and, if it hadn’t been for Hitler’s insistance to carry on with their assault through the winter could have easily captured it.

The Battle of Britain, could have easily been won by continuous bombings of Britain’s airfields and not on unimportant civialian targets in London and other major UK cities.

Also, the entire Nazi empire in early 1941 stretched from France to Romania, to Norway to the Balkans state. The amount of people under their rule, and mostly in the factories, was close to 1 Billion People! Even up to late 1943 and early 1944 the Wehrmacht was the best equipped, most powerful military force in the world, AND it took 3 fronts to defeat them.

It took the Russians four years to cross the same ground the Germans crossed in under a year (excluding Poland). With the Germans giving stiff-resistance at every turn.

Somehow, they could also fuel a basic defensive victory by military terms in Italy and still provide enough men to keep the Anglo-American armies pinned near the Normandy coast line for more than two months.

The Wehrmacht also was made up of several countries, comprised of a vast number of divisions, just look here: http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=574. And even in March 1945 the German U-Boats at sea were over 300, operating in various parts of the world including the Carribean! Also, the Luftwaffe, had it been used more properly could have seriously dampered the Allies bombing efforts.

If Russia would have been knocked out think of how much pressure the British would have to face with the Wehrmacht breathing down their neck? Think of how different Russia would be if the British did not send vital supplies.

My conclusion: If Hitler let his Generals run the war and not himself, we might now be living in a colony of the Third Reich.

In a word: yes. They could of won the war.

#162

They could of won the war if they attacked countries strategically and not to attack everyone with everything at once.

You said, England could of been taken by the Germans if they bombed the Airfields instead of the Civilian buildings…the germans didn’t always know where the English bases, bunkers and airfields were.
Also, German Submarine and U-boats have travelled all over the globe, even in North American Waters.

#163

It’s very difficult to hide either an airbase or an army camp from the air - of course they knew where they all were - they just couldn’t bomb anywhere other than the South East with fighter cover.

#164

Alternative history is always dodgy groundbut makes for an intersting discusion. Lest try to set some constants:

Germany had to invade Russia. This was Hitler’s main aim - the establishment of eastern colonies for the heerenvolk (sp?). Personally I don’t see any way the Germans could have forced Russia’s surrender. There were ways that the Germans could have greatly increased their chances:

  1. Let the Generals run the war.
  2. Take Moscow in 1941 very difficult but possible
  3. Prepare from the outset for a long war
  4. Make use of the huge numbers of white Russians that were keen to fight the communists and equip them with captured Russian equipment.
  5. Perhaps declare independent Ukraine and Belarus (puppet states naturaly)

Even then I don’t believe the Russians would have given up. Not unless someone close to him put a bullet through Stalin’s skull and he’d already purged anyone with the balls to do that. Even if they couldn’t exploit Hitler’s mistakes they could just have fought a war of attrition even if it went on to 1950.

Going back to Britain I thinks Britain’s darkest hour was not the BoB but the wavering in the cabinet in May 1940 if Churchil had not come to power I believe we may well have agreed to a cease fire. Though we would never have allowed ourselves to be invaded without resistance. I think that this thread has shown that we would have defeated an invasion in 1940.

The Germans had a better chance of defeating Britain in the Battle of the Atlantic. Look at the absolutely critical effect the Royal Navy’s blocade of Germany had in World War One.

#165

The Germans were at their height of their power in 1941, if they attacked Russia then ( a year earlier ) they would need as many Units as they can get and attack straight to Moscow.
Though if the Germans stayed neutral with the Russians before 1942 and marched into Britian, instead of just bombarding it with V-rockets, then they would easily capture Britian and fortify their defenses there against allied attacks to retake Britain.

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#166

Cdo, I notice the maps are marked ‘USAF Museum.’
Did no-one tell them that both Spain and Sweden were neutral too ?

Still geography, accuracy and nav have never been their strong point !

#167

So what you are saying is: attack Britain in Summer 1941 and Russia in 1942?

I don’t see how that would have helped. True, the Germans would have had 1940 to build up for an invasion of Britain in 1941 and and also an extra year to build up for the invasion of Russia.

However Britain could regain her shattered army by 1941 and the RAF was improving rapidly in that period both in terms of strength and more modern aircraft. I think that Germany would have had a better chance in 1940.

Likewise Russia was in the middle of an Army wide reorganisation in June 1941. This would have been completed a year later and the effect of the purges would have also been reduced. Modern tanks especialy the T34 would have made up the significant part of Russia’s tank fleet and most of the I-153s and I-16s would have been replaced.

So not a good move for Germany.

If you want to play with the calender a better plan for Germany would have been to ignore France and Britain in Summer 1940 and push hard and fast for Moscow. The Russians had just been screwed by the Finns, the purges were in full swing. The French would have been embarressed into an offensive in spring 1941 which would probably been an inept disaster - perhaps Britain and France would have come to terms.

#168

Germany could have never won the war. The beginning of the end for Germany started December 8, 1941.

#169

germany would have won the war if they finished off britain first while completely mobilizeing all industry and population for total war.

then spend some time to prepare to take russia.

first, by expanding germany’s automobile production capacity and produce plenty of warm clothing. increase mobilization to at least 50 percent. and ofa course, do the usually advancement of weapons.

invade the soviet union. Forget about seizing sevestapol and stalingrad or any major city that proves too fortified. lay seige to the enemy’s cities with the goal of reaching the oil fields of the caucauses. once the oil fields are secured, russia would be truely screwed. the caucauses provide around 80 percent of the ussr’s fuel.

expend all effort possible to keep the oil fields intact and linked with the german army. then, finish off the encircled cities one by one.

once white russia is taken, the rest of russia would be much easier to take.

anyway, stalingradk, the us army was a weakling in 1941. while the navy was decent, your talking about an army that has inferior technology, quality of personelll, and a tiny 150,000 man size. the us army would not be a feasible threat until at least late 1944 to early 1945.

by then, russia would be finished and france would be refortified.

#170

If Britain was crushed, the United States would obviously put enough manpower and war supplies into the effort to elimiinate the Axis in which they did throughout the year of 1943.

If Britain was gone, who cares about France anyways? The Allies could have landed in many places.

Even if Moscow was captured, the Wehrmacht would have to hold off an endless assault of Soviet Counter-Strikes.

Also, Germany and its allys never ever dreamed of invading US soil.

What you must understand is that with WWII “what if’s”, comes up with more possiblities for the Allies to win a sure victory.

#171

you overestimate american power and fight abilities. first of all in 1943, the afrika corp was defeated. all 40,000 of them. and around 200,000 italians? (who needs these guys) it took a disportionate amount of time and energy for the allies to defeat this tiny force.

the north africa campaign was a drop in the bucket compared to stalingrad. don’t even bother comparing them.

if britain was gone, america would have to invade germany by herself. more than half of the d-day personnel were british forces.

and as i wrote in another thread, the american army is almost embarrashingly slow in ground forces operations. look at d-day to berlin. it took wayyyy too long against such small opposition.

a concentrated panzer attack with enough fuel and not bled white in the russian front would destroy the americans around the beaches.

moscow isn’t as important as the russian oil fields. you take that, the russians have nothing to power their tanks or expand their industry. they are finished. just like how russia took rumania from the germans in late 1943. the german air force and panzer forces were crippled after losing rumania, it proved 90 percent of germany’s fuel.

human-wave assaults aren’t that difficult to destory if they aren’t supported by tanks or enough artillery. thats how germany was able to advance and take over 40 percent of white, industrial russia in one year.

what you must understand is that america wasn’t the only worldrpower in ww2.

#172

Im afraid this has turned into our very wrost what if of them all.

All the Axis propositioners here assume that the Nazis have all suddenly started getting on with each other and bonded in some sort of way.

The war went the way it did largely because all the top Nazis were trying to get 1 up on each other, to assume they would change is the biggest farthest out what-if of the lot.

#173

The one thing I wonder… if Germany invaded (I believe it was either one of them that was neutral, my memory easily slips :? ) Finland and Norway. Why not Switzerland? They would get a lot of money and arms. 8)
http://www.wsws.org/history/1998/may1998/gold-m30.shtml ← Good site on German-Swiss Collaboration

#174

Invaded Norway and Denmark, Finland was sort of an ally. As for why not Switzerland, the Swiss army is huge even today (every adult male is in it) and the terrain is awful to attack over. There are good reasons the Swiss have managed to stay neutral for a very long time.

#175

Plus the Swiss hold really no stratigic purposes, to force an invasion from Germany, and the last post is correct the Swiss military is massive today (400,000Men) (Not everyone though 8) and back in 1939-1945 is was much bigger. Theres a reason no one attacks them.

#176

Plus theres nothing there. What purpose would there be in invading Switzerland? To gain the world domination of the Cuckoo-Clock industry?

#177

One word…

Toblerone.

#178

I think the Germans could have won the war in russia. If they had just taken Moscow in the first 4 months, the Russians would have lost. The Ruskies had already been caught with their pants down. The fact that the germans failed to take Moscow allowed the Russians to “pull their pants up” with Stalin’s winter offensive.

When Guderians Panzergruppe 2 flung out across the River bug and seized the forts at Brest Litovsk, they quilckly drove straght for the city of Minsk, curving up from the South to meet Hoth’s Panzergruppe 3 coming from the north. thus the soviet forces were immedietely behind their attack fronts, and were isolated in a huge cauldron in which, once their supplies had run out, they would have little alternative but to surrender.

This was all achieved in five days. However, the pockets of Soviet troops were not as inclined to surrender as their counterparts in France. When the decision to destroy these soviet pockets came by, Hoth and Guderian thought that the clean up should be left to the infantry of the 4th and 9th armies, and that the Panzer spearheads should continue on to Smolensk and then to Moscow. Guderian grew impatient, and launched his Panzers toward the river Beresina, and thei to the River Dniepr. They reached river Dniepr in 4 days, but then were immediatelly bugged down with fighting. Guderian had lost contact with Hoths Panzergruppe. Smolensk was captured on the 16 of July and the next target was Moscow. However, on the 29th of July, Hitler gave the order to go no further east, and to redirect attention to Ukraine.

29th of JULY :!: like a month after the german invasion began! So close to Moscow!

At that time, Moscow was very poorly defended, and all of the Soviet government had fled, except for Stalin and some of his commanders, including Zhukov.

imagine how the war in russia would have been like if Moscow had been captured in the first 4 months. :idea:

#179

imagine how the war in russia would have been like if Moscow had been captured in the first 4 months.

I suggest you dig out your copy of War and Peace chap.

#180

What?