Democracy

Maybe the Americans aren’t, either. They’ve lost four of forty three presidents to assassination, and another four suffered attempts.

Losing close to 10% to assassination, or close to 20% subjected to assassination and attempted assassination, doesn’t indicate a healthy democracy confident in the power of the ballot box.

My recollection is that the notion in France during, although not expressed in these terms, and after was Liberté, égalité, fraternité. The French certainly knew how to apply that at home and abroad, then and now. Not unlike the Americans with the grand notions enshrined in the French gift of the Statue of Liberty:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Well, the lamp ain’t shining all that bright for some, 'cos they are wretched refuse that ain’t gonna get past the golden door. http://www.minutemanproject.com/

Erhh…

The word democracy derives from the ancient Greek demokratia (δημοκρατία) (literally, rule by the people) formed from the roots demos (δημος), “people,”[5] “the mob, the many”[6] and kratos (κρατος) “rule” or “power”.

Thank you for that.

The United States are a Republic, not a Democracy, even though some functions are operated democratically.In a pure Democracy, the majority may change any aspect of the social system, economy, etc. without limit. In a Republic, all changes wrought by majority vote, Executive, or Legislative action must conform to the founding body of law.

Or indicates that it’s to easy for dumbasses to aquire guns :twisted: :mrgreen:

They also gave George Washington the key to the Bastille, which now resides at Mount Vernon, Virginia.

http://www.mountvernon.org/visit/plan/index.cfm/cfid/9807853/cftoken/36002646

But what’s this…is nothing sacred?

The original key to the Bastille prison has been returned after it was stolen from a touring waxwork exhibition in Sydney, Australia. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/384240.stm

Trust me the lamp is shinning brighter than ever. In the past legal immigrants came through Ellis Island. Each legal Immigrant was checked upon arrival to the U.S. They actually got permission to be here, can you imagine that? What a concept.
Some were turned away, about 2%, usually because they had a contagious disease or criminal history. Today…the majority of Americans welcome immigrants to the U.S., most are hard workers and are just looking for a better life, we just want it done legal and don’t appreciate the illegal’s slithering across the border at night unchecked.
Does anyone here think you shouldn’t be checked before immigrating into another Country?

LOL…Can you imagine the lawsuits if we didn’t let dumb asses buy firearms?? LOL :slight_smile:

That probably explains why the basic tenets of the Declaration of Independence didn’t apply to the slaves.

Extract
" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

For myself, Democracy is a 'virtuous ‘Idea’, which, like that other ‘virtuous Idea’ Christianity, has been usurped and shaped to fit the feet of those that wield power by fooling the people into believing that they have been saved from something evil.

The many thousands of dead in the American Civil war explains why they did…
I always find it amusing when people who have little or no idea of the nature of America will continually find fault with our ways, and system of government to the extent of attempting to define, quantify, and package these qualities into what they themselves feel they should be according to some unknown, (or uncaredfor) value system.
If so many of you folks out there feel so strongly about this subject, then please, for your own good, do not come here, not even to visit. We Americans are fine with our ways, and need no help from the outside world in governing ourselves. It seems that this thread has become a place to assail the United States in it’s several aspects, and in particular, our second amendment. Its really no one’s business but ours, so please keep your narrow criticisms to your separate selves. Should that be too difficult, please emigrate, and win citizenship, then at least you have a reason to blether so.

I think this quote from WSC puts its perfectly

“Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those others that have been tried from time to time”.

Winston Churchill

The Civil War wasn’t fought to free the slaves, it was to keep the nation united.

I always find it amusing when people who have little or no idea of the nature of America will continually find fault with our ways, and system of government to the extent of attempting to define, quantify, and package these qualities into what they themselves feel they should be according to some unknown, (or uncaredfor) value system.
If so many of you folks out there feel so strongly about this subject, then please, for your on good, do not come here, not even to visit. We Americans are fine with our ways, and need no help from the outside world in governing ourselves. It seems that this thread has become a place to assail the United States in it several aspects, and in particular, our second amendment. Its really no one’s business but ours, so please keep your narrow criticisms to your separate selves. Should that be too difficult, please emmigrate, and win citizenship, then at least you have a reason to blether so.

Aah, but when you go about the world forcing your version of freedom and democracy down everyones throats, then it becomes the business of the world.

Besides, I wasn’t criticising the U.S. per se, it just offered an example of virtuous ideals gone wrong. The British people are also misled by their leaders and much of my remarks are all encompassing of so called democracies. Perhaps we in Britain are simply jealous of your freedom as we continue to live under the regime of a tyranical monarch?

I thank you for your comments.

True, but both Jefferson and Washington were against slavery overall even though both owned them. Washington set his slaves free, and Jefferson wrote specific legislation designed to subvert the institution of slavery over time, as president…

And slavery, though abhorrent, was certainly no worse than the enlightened European custom of colonialism…

The division of the nation was largely the result over the issue of slavery…

Quote: “The Civil War wasn’t fought to free the slaves, it was to keep the nation united.”

slavery was an important issue in pre war arguments between the U.S. gov’t, and those States who were set to ceceed from the Union (or would attempt to.) It was not the first season on the list, but it was none the less inseparable from the other reasons.
Slavery had been practiced since long before there was an official United States, Brought by the Dutch traders who first engaged in slave trading. At first, they merely bought their slaves from tribal elders who wanted to rid themselves of the criminal, crazy, and no accounts they had among their numbers. Later, when the money proved too good to pass up, they just took whomever they wanted.
slavery rode into the U.S. on its coat tails when the country was formally constituted, and was found mostly in the south.(Central, and East) It wasnt popular in the North.
So indeed it was part of why the Civil War was fought, with many blacks joining to fight against the South.

Don’t forget that plenty of European nations used, or traded in, slaves. (My great grandfather, who was Portuguese, went to sea on a Portuguese slave ship, but deserted at the first opportunity.)

The passage of abolition statutes in Europe and England in the latter part of the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries didn’t stop it.

Slave ships were still being built in England, and bankrolled by English bankers and insured by English insurers.

Want to guess where 80% of the cotton that fuelled Britain’s great textile industry expansion came from, even after Britain ‘abolished’ slavery in 1807, and then really abolished it in 1838?

Yep, slave plantations. In America.

So, despite being formally neutral in the American civil war, guess where huge financial support for the Confederacy came from?

Yep, that’d be the mill owners and others dependent upon the cotton trade in Britain.

Liverpool, the Wirral, Lancashire and most of the surrounding area, had strong political, emotional and financial connections and sympathies with the Confederate States of America during the American Civil War (1861-1865). Indeed, so strong were these connections that it has been quoted that at one time “more Confederate flags fluttered above Liverpool than over Richmond” (the Confederate capital in Virginia).1

One of the main reasons for the link was economical, based on the importance of cotton, upon which both the Southern States and the Lancashire mills depended.
My bold
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/displayGuide.aspx?sid=62&mode=html&sorStr=s_id+ASC+0&serStr=&pgeInt=7&catStr=

An interesting detailed treatment of the global consequences of the cotton famine caused by the Civil War is here: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/109.5/beckert.html

Shows that, as usual, profit trumps principle most times, democracy or not, so far as the capitalists are concerned. Although self-interest among workers tends to have the same effect when their jobs are at risk.

While the English cotton workers suffered greatly, some expressed solidarity with the slaves in the South, an event that Karl Marx made much of.

In September 1862 US President Lincoln had issued his Proclamation of Emancipation. On New Years Eve 1862, Lancashire cotton workers attended a public meeting at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. A letter was drafted and sent to President Lincoln. An excerpt reads:

“…the vast progress which you have made in the short space of twenty months fills us with hope that every stain on your freedom will shortly be removed, and that the erasure of that foul blot on civilisation and Christianity - chattel slavery - during your presidency, will cause the name of Abraham Lincoln to be honoured and revered by posterity. We are certain that such a glorious consummation will cement Great Britain and the United States in close and enduring regards.”

This letter travelled from Manchester across the Atlantic and elicited a considered response, drafted by a President at war- all in little over 2 weeks.

Abraham Lincoln’s swift reply acknowledged Lancashire’s hardship as a result of the Cotton Famine:
"…I know and deeply deplore the sufferings which the working people of Manchester and in all Europe are called to endure in this crisis. It has been often and studiously represented that the attempt to overthrow this Government which was built on the foundation of human rights, and to substitute for it one which should rest exclusively on the basis of slavery, was likely to obtain the favour of Europe.
"Through the action of disloyal citizens, the working people of Europe have been subjected to a severe trial for the purpose of forcing their sanction to that attempt. Under the circumstances I cannot but regard your decisive utterances on the question as an instance of sublime Christian heroism which has not been surpassed in any age or in any country. It is indeed an energetic and re-inspiring assurance of the inherent truth and of the ultimate and universal triumph of justice, humanity and freedom.
“I hail this interchange of sentiments, therefore, as an augury that, whatever else may happen, whatever misfortune may befall your country or my own, the peace and friendship which now exists between the two nations will be, as it shall be my desire to make them, perpetual.”
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/manchester/2007/11/384980.html

That event is remembered in a statue in Lincoln Square in Manchester, presented by an American couple.

Well, what do you expect from a nation of convicts?

What do you think we’re going to do when we see a chance to nick a key to a prison?

Mate, the liberator of the key (who in other nations, with forgetful memories about how they were staffed originally, might be called a thief) couldn’t help it. It’s in our genes.

;):smiley:

My understanding is that Washington freed the slaves after his death stating that they were to be freed after the death of his wife. Imagine these people taking sidelong glances at her and considering which poison to use.

Both Jefferson and Washington didn’t just keep slaves - they bred them from their own loins.

It cuts both ways.

Americans who want to present some version of what America is, as just one set of beliefs and attitudes (like the bullshit we’ve had here in recent years with our thankfully just voted out neo-con national government carrying on about ‘Australian values’ are as if we all agree on what they are, when nobody does among real people), are just as far off the mark in missing the diversity of America.

For example, who has the better claim to representing the real America? The NRA or the ACLU? Aren’t they both American organisations, asserting the constitutional rights of Americans?

Here’s something I posted in another thread, the title of which shall remain a secret :wink: as some Americans confused a question with an allegation or call for support, which outlines the diversity of America and Americans.

[quote]Originally Posted by royal744
America is a stunning patchwork of people and races, languages, religions and beliefs.

Here’s the substance of a recent article by a senior Australian journalist, and former editor of the paper the article appears in, which confirms that comment from the outsider’s view.

Some particularly wise person once said that if you are going to write about America, you should do so after a short stay, maybe a few weeks, before you are overwhelmed by its diversity and the sheer size of the place, with all its contradictions, excesses and complexities.

I fear that I have failed to convey the complexity of America, but if I have failed I am not alone. My view is that most of the reporting of the place by most foreign correspondents — British, European and, yes, Australian — fails the complexity test.

This, of course, is not unique to the coverage of the United States. Shortly after I arrived in Washington, David Broder, the veteran Washington Post columnist, having spent a few days in Australia, mainly in Sydney, wrote a column in which he described a country that to me was barely recognisable.

Broder’s Australia was an earthly paradise, beautiful beyond imagining, with few economic or social problems, rich and prosperous and peaceful; Australians were friendly and unpretentious, larrikins it is true, but lovable larrikins, a country of men cut from the same cloth as the Crocodile Hunter.

Broder couldn’t get past the cliches and prejudices about the place that he had brought with him to Sydney. How much harder is it then, for foreign correspondents whose job it is to cover America to get past the cliches about the place they have grown up with and the prejudices they have brought with them.

The baggage we bring with us is considerable. American popular culture has long been globalised. And American junk food has taken over the world. For much of my time here, America felt like a giant movie set. And sometimes it felt as if I was in the middle of a TV sitcom. It is so easy and so tempting to describe and report on an America of gun madness, violence, junk food-fed obesity, scary religious fundamentalism, sickly sentimental patriotism and swaggeringly stupid politicians such as George Bush.

That America exists, no doubt, but it is not the whole story. It is not even half the story. Perhaps the best time I had in America was when I was able to travel across the country, to what is often described as the heartland — the Midwest and the plains states and the South-west.

I remember a Saturday night dinner at an old hotel outside a small town in Kansas where all the townsfolk, grandparents and their children and their grandchildren, gathered each week for a fried chicken feast, a place that felt as if it was still living in the 1950s, and where we were made welcome, we strangers, and even invited into people’s homes for a visit.

This happened everywhere, at baseball games, on train journeys, even in coffee shops; people offering hospitality and actually meaning it. Even in Washington, that most competitive of cities where everyone, it seems, is out to become a master of the universe, there was a real sense of neighbourhood and neighbourliness.

Once, when we had been away a few weeks travelling, we returned a few days before Christmas to find our front door decorated with holly and a note welcoming us back home. America is probably the most welcoming place in the world, where millions every year come to seek a new start and where there is no test of blood or tribal connections they have to pass to become Americans.

It is not without significance that, unlike Europe’s Muslims, America’s 2.5-million-strong Muslim community is highly assimilated, an economic success story and, overall, slightly more optimistic about America’s future than the general population, according to recent research by the Pew Research Centre. And an overwhelming majority of American Muslims — more than 90 per cent — are opposed to Islamic extremism.

Much of American popular culture is trashy, of course, and much of its commercial media is mindless and fixated on celebrity, but the best of American journalism — print and broadcast — is better than anything I have found elsewhere, British journalism included.

America is a place full of contradictions that it would take a lifetime to unravel. For instance, while the Bush Administration’s response to Hurricane Katrina and the drowning of New Orleans was inept and heartless, there was a great outpouring of generosity from Americans, who donated several billion dollars to support the mostly poor, black victims.

And tens of thousands of displaced people from New Orleans and the Mississippi coastal region were welcomed and resettled in cities in Texas that were not renowned for their history of great race relations.

I think that we foreign correspondents in America often deliver a cliched and a one-dimensional sense of this place, of this superpower that will play a major role in determining the future of all of us.

Me, I have grown to love the place, for all its failings. I will miss writing about it.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinio...205073484.html[/quote]

Post #51 at http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4747&highlight=hates+americans&page=4

Washington and Venus

In 1998, a story that had persisted for some 200 years, a story dismissed as rumor, gossip and worse, was finally proven true by science. Thomas Jefferson fathered children with his slave Sally Hemings. The story forced new public consideration of Jefferson, and America’s mixed race past.
For one particular group of women, however, the final truth about Jefferson encouraged them to believe the nation might be ready to hear their own family story.
LINDA BRYANT
When was a little girl, my mother // My mother told me and my siblings that we were related to George Washington, that he was our fifth great-grandfather.
JUDITH BURTON
My grandmother told us that we were related to George Washington and I remember how I felt, kind of in awed, you know in awe and I just couldn’t fathom that but she said it a lot. She told us all the time.
Linda Allen Bryant and her sisters Joy and Janet are from Illinois. Their distant cousin Judith Burton lives in Virginia. Until recently they did not know one another, but they each grew up on stories of George Washington and a slave named Venus.
LINDA BRYANT
We were told that Venus was asked to comfort George Washington, she was probably a young teenage girl, around 15, 16 years of age, she was a house servant of his brother’s. And when he became president, he no longer associated with her.
Put yourself in my position: sitting and learning about your grandfather, learning about that he couldn’t tell a lie when he chopped down the cherry tree and his father asked him, and that all the great and wondrous things that he’s done for this country, but no one in the country knew that he had a son and that that son was black.
West Ford was Venus’s son. His descendants say that George Washington was his father and that he knew and cared for West.