Democracy

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#41

I believe he freed most of his slaves during his lifetime after retirement, which ultimately led to his death since he was too old to preform the daily upkeep at Mount Vernon. But I could be incorrect on that…

Both Jefferson and Washington didn’t just keep slaves - they bred them from their own loins.

As was the custom of the day, and we can point to several accepted, unspoken practices of the time that today we find repulsive, such as pedophilia in the British Army and the like…But that changes nothing into what was the insight into their views

Washington I can’t speak for, but I’ve never heard that though it’s pretty clear he was in love with another woman who wasn’t his wife, but she was an upper class white woman…

Yes, Jefferson had an affair with Sally Hemings, but it appears to have entailed a strong emotional attachment and she was more of a mistress than a “breader”…

Of course he was a hypocrite to some extent, but there is evidence that he actually attempted to force a gradual ending of slavery via something he did legislatively, but it was very subtle and is often missed. In any case, he did speak out against slavery:

Thomas Jefferson wrote “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever.”

Jefferson was very outspoken against slavery. In 1779, Jefferson proposed a law that was intended to provide for gradual emancipation in Virginia. In 1787, he published the most eloquent denunciation of slavery of any of the founders in “Notes on the State of Virginia.” In 1807, as President, he publicly supported the abolition of the slave trade.

Jefferson’s first draft of the Declaration of Independence read that blacks were “men” and slavery was wrong.

  1. “He [the king of Britain] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere…. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce.”

http://hercules.gcsu.edu/~hedmonds/lecture%20notes/PROBLEM%20OF%20SLAVERY.htm

#42

Steady on, old chap.

Anyone would think you’re opposing democracy being imposed on people who don’t want it.

Surely you see that being made to be democratic is the greatest gift one can receive, whether or not one wants it.

That’s what international democracy is all about. The freedom to be made into a democratic country, without consultation or plebiscite, by invasion if necessary, for your own and your family’s good.

If any of you survive being made democratic.

#43

I don’t know if the British soldiery were into buggering boys (public school - e.g. Eton - officers might be, but they were trained for that at school ;)), but the ancient Greeks were as a military tradition, which illustrates one of the problems in applying today’s standards to a different era.

Many people assume that there are moral absolutes, but I don’t know that there’s much that wasn’t acceptable somewhere at some time.

Same problem with democracy. What it means has to be viewed in the light of the time.

However, just in the interests of balancing the British army’s ledger, let’s not forget the famous line that the Royal Navy was based on rum, buggery, and the lash.

Not much different to Christian Brothers’ schools in the mid 20th century, really.

#44

Good morning, how are things in ‘Pleasantville’ today?

Slavery was an issue, I wouldn’t contest that. But I would argue that it was more of a contest for ascendency between Federal and State government, the slave economy of the south being the issue that brought the contest to the fore. Pity that, even after the war and emancipation, it didn’t really achieve much in improving the lot of the former slaves as they became share-croppers etc.

Britain also had slave colonies and was arguably the most efficient trader in the Atlantic Slave Trade up until about 1807. There are great debates as to why Britian gave up slavery, some say it was about the fall in the demand for sugar on account of sugarbeat being grown in Europe. Others argue that it was to ruin the French economy as it was so wealthy from its planataions in San Domingo. Not many arguments about freeing the slaves for humanitarian reasons.

My sentiments regading the Declaration of Independence remain unchanged.

#45

Probably the most sensible comment on the world in which we live.

#46

That sounds juicy - please elaborate.

As we all know, the British Army, unlike any other army, only recruits pedeophiles. They are promised 22 young boys if they die in battle (young girls if there are a lot of casualties and, hence, a shortage of boys), so the recruitment centres were, and remain, overwhelmed.

Having been educated at an Irish-Catholic school, I can appreciate indoctrination, that’s why all of my American cousins (and I have a fair number of them) have my heartfelt sympathy.

#47

So, that explains that protrusion? :slight_smile:

#48

Huh?

It explains prostitution, for sure.

We don’t protrude in our jeans, mate, we bloody explode out of them.

You don’t wanna be around when the pin is pulled on the undies grenade, unless you’re a sheila. Even then, it’s best not to be around, if you want to be able to have children in the rest of your life. Or even a leak.
:wink: :smiley:

#49

Presumably, you also keep the amber nectar in your jeans. :eek:

#50

Only on the exhaust side, and only if I forget about that metal tooth thingy that lets you open up your trousers. Or the buttons on the fly thingy. Have to remember which one I have, or precious time is wasted trying to operate non-present technology.

Or it doesn’t matter if I can’t be bothered getting out of bed, which is why I like foam mattresses, because they’re easier to squeeze out.

Anyway, seriously, many, many moons ago I worked with a bloke (who’d had his ?18th ? 21st birthday in a weapon pit in the islands upsetting the Japs and who died some time back) who used to belt a few in every lunchtime and spend the afternoon very relaxed. Sometimes he was even awake. You have to understand how comfortable the public service was then.

Anyway, one day there was some send off or something and pretty much all of us got extremely relaxed during a fairly short lunchtime.

The magic moment occurred in the urinal, where said bloke was one of a number doing what one does.

Until he said something like

“Ahhh. Shit.”

This drew the attention of his associates on either side. Their attention was focused more acutely by his following comment:

“I’ve pissed meself.”

He was so relaxed that, while holding it, he forgot to take it out of his trousers.

It’s not a good look on light grey slacks.

#51

Nick, being a Mancunian I can say – hand on heart – that we Mancunians will be eternally grateful for all that you Amercians (and particularly the Confederacy)
did for us poor oppressed folk living under the Monarchial yoke perhaps I’ll be able to organise an embassy to come over and prostrate themselves.

We in the Northwest of England are pretty clued-up on the Triangular-trade (Atlantic salve trade). By the way feel more strongly about events pertaining to ‘Peterloo’ rather than Lincoln Square.

Note the link is Liverpool mueseums. We don’t run away from our history, and we can handle a little criticism, however much our heads are up our arses.

#52

Depends on what someone likes to read or look at, The ACLU’s position on Child Porn is this: criminalize the production but legalize the sale and distribution of child pornography. And the ACLU fulfills its agenda using my tax money.
So the answer is easy for me…on this one issue alone…the NRA has the better claim

#53

Would you consider that undemocratic?

Would you prefer to live in a society where one didn’t have to pay taxes (after all, you do have representation)?

“Freedom’s just another word for ‘nothing left to lose!’” Kris Kristofferson

Personally, I prefer the Janis Joplin version. :slight_smile:

#54

Goodness me, where did that pip come from? Does somebody actually approve of my postings?

At least, now, I wont have to listen to RS insisting that I salute and call him ‘Sir’ whenever he apears on a thread (Don’t tell me, - you have seniority?).

Time I considred an addittion to my signature, gentlemen.

#55

Are you asking if I concider not being able to look at child porn Undemocratic? No…I dont

My point with the taxes was…the NRA does not received tax money. The ACLU when it sues a town or city for having something they dont like, heres just two examples.

California taxpayers were forced to give the ACLU $63,000 after their lawsuit to remove a World War One Memorial Cross from the Mojave National Preserve.

Another when San Diego residents were forced to pay $230,000 in legal costs in an effort to defend the Mount Soledad Cross (a memorial to the Korean War) from an ACLU lawsuit. The Korean War Memorial had been established in 1952.

That money comes from taxpayers…

#56

California taxpayers - by that I presume you mean that the State of California lost a law suit and had to pay up?..ditto with the other case?

So, what’s the problem here? Is it that the case was lost, or should never have been contested in the first place? If so, isn’t the paying up a matter of course and shouldn’t your argument be with the people that lost the case?

Not much on abreviations myself, not being an American or residing in America, what is ACLU and NRA?

By the way. Regarding: child porn - should have their balls cut off in the first instance and then perhaps continue with a little disembowlment before we really get started. If you get my meaning?

#57

LOL

That’s not what I am saying. I should have put a disclaimer and drank more coffee before I wrote that, but I think there was a perception that some of the British mid-level officers kept boy pages. Perhaps that was a bad example, as of course many of the senior officers on both sides had mistresses which was considered the norm for the upper classes in both the colonies and in Britain…

My point is that the case of Jefferson and Hemings was an actually affair and a matter of the heart and not just the case of Jefferson using his slave as a concubine as would have been the norm in Roman times. Although I think it is a bit shameful that Jefferson’s white descendants have largely ostracized his black descendants and there seems to be a bit of conflict between the two groups.

As far as George Washington, well anybody can say they were direct relations with little or no proof. You do realize that there are no more Washingtons in the US left that are white? at least last I heard. It was a very popular name for freed African Americans to choose as their last names since they often had none prior to being freed…

I’m not trying to defend the actions of either. Of course they were both imperfect hypocrites and products of their time. But I think we need to understand them in the proper context…

#58

I don’t judge either of them. In fact Jefferson was, in my opinion, the best of the American presidents, including Lincoln.

I’ll have to explain my point later as I’m in need of some sleep.

By the way. In English Public Schools (Private schoos) of that time, the head boys had younger boys to run about and ‘Fag’ (valet) for them. These younger boys were usually known as ‘Fags’ (recommend Tom Brown’s School Days) and when they became senior boys, they too would have Fags. So, it’s easy to see why the officers had boys serving them. These days, their valets are known as ‘Batman’.

#59

Let us also not forget that many black Africans engaged in slave trading and often provided the “product” to the Euro/American slave traders…

The image of Kunta Kinte being chased through the plains by white men with nets in the iconic American miniseries “Roots” was not always the correct image. It was often rival tribes abducting their enemies and selling them out of their homelands…

#60

Quite right, and for a dramatisation, try the film Amistad.