Discusion about firearms classifications

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#81

That’s not from the PAMS, you retard - that’s from the US army doctrine which is on the Internet (google for the 1st sentance) - the British army doesn’t have an SDM concept, and all infantarymen are equipped with an optic. The pams cannot be published or cut & pasted directly, cos they’ve got the big word “RESTRICTED” across the top.

Now, as for admitting errors, I’d like a retraction about your claims that self-loading/auto firearms are less powerful per se than bolt action or revolver guns, that French is a Celtic language, that the operating principle of the Stg44 and AK47 are the same, and so on and so forth (basically everything you’ve said that’s quoted in the "Walter’s Big Book of Military Knowledge). Your current silence just doesn’t cut it.

#82

Oh? So you can’t prove afterall your absurd claim that section fire with AR’s is done at 600m! Figures. Next you’ll say section fire is done in fully auto with AR’s at 700m. :lol:

Then you’ll say we do section fire at 800m because we use an optic. :lol:

What absurd claim comes next? 3cm groups at 400m with an AR? :lol:

#83

Oh. So you can’t prove afterall your absurd claim that section fire with AR’s is done at 600m! Figures. Next you’ll say section fire is done in fully auto with AR’s at 700m. :lol:

Then you’ll say we do section fire at 800m because we use an optic. :lol:

What absurd claim comes next?[/quote]

Your one that French is a celtic language?

#84

You mean you’re a Euro and you don’t know that the French are Celtic people? Did you never take a civilization course in college? I guess because you’re a Brit you think the only Celtic tribes that exist are in Britain?

#85

Stoat, hate to say it, but the operating principle of the MP.44 and AK47 is the same. They are both gas operated weapons. What is different is the method of locking the bolt.

By the way, the MP.44 and AK47 have as much in common as is different. Did you know that Hugo Schmeisser was a guest of the Soviet Union Oct. 1946- 1952 and was working in the same factory as M. Kalashnikov?

#86

The AK-47 used a similar sized round and followed the design concept of the MP44, but was internally (mechanically) different. It was with this weapon that the English term ‘assault rifle’ for intermediate automatic carbines rose to greater prominence, and has since has been retro-actively applied to earlier weapons in this category. While the name originated from certain English translations of Sturmgewehr, the weapon itself did not mark the invention of the weapon concept of an assault rifle.

:?:

#87

Yes, but “gas-operated” is not enough to define the operating principle: one is gas-operated tipping-bolt, the other is gas-operated rotating-bolt.

The one bit of design that /was/ robbed from the MP44 is the gas tube: it’s corrugated longitudinally so that fouling and dirt has somewhere to fall off into once the piston has passed the vent holes and the power’s off. The other advantage of the corrugations is that they reduce friction once the gas pressure’s off, cos the piston head only touches at 4 points instead of around its circumference.

As to the other features:

Magazine - AK47 rocks in, MP44 pushes in.
Construction - very different (see piccies posted by Praetorian)
Trigger mechanism - totally different
Controls - the AK47 has a single lever that works as dust-cover and fire selector on the right hand side, the MP44 has 2 crossbolts.
Construction - the receiver of the MP44 is almost entirely stamped (it’s a very clever design), the original AK47 is machined.

The reasons that they look similar from the outside is that there’s only so many ways you can make a firearm which has a curly mag on the bottom, but having had both apart (and having fired both) I can assure you that there’s very little that’s similar about them internally.

#88

However you slice it, the MP44 was the inspiration for the AK, as I have said here, and someone denied.

#89

You mean you’re a Euro and you don’t know that the French are Celtic people? Did you never take a civilization course in college? I guess because you’re a Brit you think the only Celtic tribes that exist are in Britain?[/quote]

The French language is based largely on Latin, and is, as has been said before, one of the Romance group of languages, (from Roman), along with Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and Romanian. ( I may have missed some).
The only Celtic language spoken in France is Breton, (Ar Brezhoneg), spoken mainly in Western Brittany, which belongs to the same group of Celtic languages as Welsh , the Brythonic branch.
Celts did, indeed live in France, as they did throughout much of Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Spain and the British Isles.
However, historic movements and invasions have altered bloodlines to the point where it would be very difficult, by any criteria, to describe the French today as being Celts, with, again, the possible exception of some pockets in Brittany. Just as in Spain, where only the Basques have any serious claim, as a group, to Celtic descent.
One example from France would be Normandy.
Scandinavian invasions of France were ended towards the end of the 9th century by the handing over to the Vikings, under Rollo the Walker, a huge area of France, now called Normandy (Land of the North Men).
Rollo and his descendants became the Dukes of Normandy, one of whom, William the Bastard, succesfully invaded England in 1066.
To this day, HM Queen’s title in the Channel islands is Duc de Normand.
Like most peoples in Europe, the French have some Celtic blood in their backgrounds.
This doesn’t make them a Celtic race, and their language is most certainly not Celtic.

#90

You mean you’re a Euro and you don’t know that the French are Celtic people? Did you never take a civilization course in college? I guess because you’re a Brit you think the only Celtic tribes that exist are in Britain?[/quote]

You find me a source on the Internet or in an encyclopaedia that says that French is a celtic language and not a Latin/Romance language.

The majority of words in the French language are of vernacular Latin extraction.

As far as I can tell, some of the tribes that made up France were celtic (such as some of the tribes of Brittany, where Breton [a celtic-derived language] is still spoken).

#91

The French people are a tribe of Celts that settled in Gaul. They are not the same tribe as those who migrated to Britain via Spain.

I’ll concede that the French language may only have Celtic influence. However, the people we call “French” are the ancestors of Celtic tribes. Now, certainly there is no such thing as a “pure” tribe anywhere in the world, expecially if you dig far enough back. But is it is safe to say that for all practical purposes, the French are Celts.

#92

One more point.
The very name, France, comes from the Franks, a Germanic speaking people, who largely conquered Northern France.
Similarly the Britons of these fair Isles, were partially conquered by, partially integrated with the invading Sais or Saxons, Jutes and Angles, in the 5th and 6th Centuries.
They came from what is now Germany, Denmark and Holland.
Hence we, and many other English speaking peoples still refer to the English races as Anglo-Saxon.
These peoples, however, never conquered Scotland, Wales, or Cornwall.
Hence these peoples claims to remaining Celts.

#93

France was inhabited largely by a Celtic people that the Romans referred to as Gauls,

From the third century on, Western Europe was invaded by Germanic, or “Barbarian”, tribes from the east, and some of these groups settled in Gaul. For the history of the French language, the most important of these groups are the Franks in northern France, the Alemanni in the German/French border, the Burgundians in the Rhone valley and the Visigoths in the Aquitaine region and Spain. These Germanic-speaking groups had a profound effect on the Latin spoken in their respective regions, altering both the pronunciation and the syntax. They also introduced a number of new words: perhaps as much as 15% of modern French comes from Germanic words, including many terms and expressions associated with their social structure and military tactics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language

#94

Your original contention was that French is a Celtic language. From your link:

The French language is a Romance dialect, meaning that it is descended from Latin.

Quod erat demonstrandum

#95

The French people are a tribe of Celts that settled in Gaul. They are not the same tribe as those who migrated to Britain via Spain.

I’ll concede that the French language may only have Celtic influence. However, the people we call “French” are the ancestors of Celtic tribes. Now, certainly there is no such thing as a “pure” tribe anywhere in the world, expecially if you dig far enough back. But is it is safe to say that for all practical purposes, the French are Celts.[/quote]
Ironman, again you are defending the indefensible.
The French are not descendants of Celtic tribes.
Celts were one of their ancestral bloodlines, but so were Scandanavian, Roman, and German, to name but three.
Unless you wish to categorise yourself as Native American, on the grounds that those are the original native people of your nation (which in any event they were not), to attempt to categorise the French as Celtic is simply pointless.
The French do not consider themselves Celts, with the exception, as I said, of the Bretons, any more than the average Brit does, with the exception of the Scots, Welsh and Cornish, not forgetting the Irish.

#96

Stoat; I disagree, “gas operation” is sufficient to describe the method by which the weapon “operates”. I my opinion the locking method is seperate from the method that initiates the reloading cycle.

Similar features:
Very first model AK47 was made of sheet steel (look it up :wink: local production was not up to the task and they had to revert to a machined steel version).
Bolt carrier and gas piston one unit
Design of the receiver that allows most of the weapon to be made of sheet steel.
The AK47 trigger is a simplified & improved version of the MP.44 trigger.
Above average (for the time) distance between the bore line and sights povides allows better control in full-auto.

For the record, you don’t need to explain either weapon to me as I have working examples of both in my collection.

#97

Your original contention was that French is a Celtic language. From your link:

The French language is a Romance dialect, meaning that it is descended from Latin.

Quod erat demonstrandum[/quote]

True, and for the most part I was incorrect about the language. It is not Celtic, but only has Celtic influence.

#98

bas, it does really depend on whether you want to define the end of the op-rod as a carrier or not - it does not carry the bolt as such (which runs in a channel), but serves simply to cam it up and down. The AK47 carrier definitely does. But then there’s other earlier designs, such as the BREN that do that as well.

Certainly the concept of the intermediate cartridge was ripped off the boxheads.

This is definitely getting into semantics now as to whether the piece on the back end of the op-rod “carries” the bolt or not. The fundamental difference, though, is the tipping bolt rather than the rotating one.

Oh, I know you know how they work, but there’s someone on here who considers himself very knowledgable on things that he’s not even seen, let alone fired & stripped! :wink:

#99

The French people are a tribe of Celts that settled in Gaul. They are not the same tribe as those who migrated to Britain via Spain.

I’ll concede that the French language may only have Celtic influence. However, the people we call “French” are the ancestors of Celtic tribes. Now, certainly there is no such thing as a “pure” tribe anywhere in the world, expecially if you dig far enough back. But is it is safe to say that for all practical purposes, the French are Celts.[/quote]
Ironman, again you are defending the indefensible.
The French are not descendants of Celtic tribes.
Celts were one of their ancestral bloodlines, but so were Scandanavian, Roman, and German, to name but three.
Unless you wish to categorise yourself as Native American, on the grounds that those are the original native people of your nation (which in any event they were not), to attempt to categorise the French as Celtic is simply pointless.
The French do not consider themselves Celts, with the exception, as I said, of the Bretons, any more than the average Brit does, with the exception of the Scots, Welsh and Cornish, not forgetting the Irish.[/quote]

:roll:

#100

ironman you are an idiot, this has been proven ad nauseum on this forum and many others. I will not be goaded into another pointless discussion with someone as ignorant and two-faced as yourself.

This will be my first and last post directed at you.

The AK-47 used a similar sized round and followed the design concept of the MP44, but was internally (mechanically) different. It was with this weapon that the English term ‘assault rifle’ for intermediate automatic carbines rose to greater prominence, and has since has been retro-actively applied to earlier weapons in this category. While the name originated from certain English translations of Sturmgewehr, the weapon itself did not mark the invention of the weapon concept of an assault rifle.

:?:[/quote]