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I please forgiveness for my excessively emotional post, which Dani independently took from another thread. Here I would want to discuss the debatable question, which is concerned the bombardment with the allies aviation of German and Japanese cities at the end WW2, in particular Dresden.
listen to “clever fellow”, I be aware in the fact that I write on this forum. When I wrote this post, this means that i already it became acquainted with the works on this theme. I read works David Irving, Jurgen Graft, William Pierce, Frederick Taylor , Alan Clark and some other professional historians. And certainly I read the recollections of Soviet veterans, who entered Dresden into 1945. I have his own opinion, which appeared as a result of generalizing the works of a number of professional historians, who affect the theme of the bombardment of Dresden into 1945. I do not consider that it absolutely correctly, but I hope that this forum it is capable to explain picture.
The fact that of David Irving planted into the prison for 3 years for the fact that it it wrote he speaks about the disturbance of the freedom of word in Austria. How I know in its works never it called to the violence or the extremism. It altogether only had a courage to deny stereotypes. Its work “destruction of Dresden” is very interesting and plausible and will be coordinated with the facts.
Chevan, too bad you forgot to add why he was sentenced in Austria for three years of prison. The reason was that he is a Holocaust denier. That’s why he has been officially banned from entering Germany, Austria, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. In democratic countries some statements cannot be protected by the freedom of speech, for example neo-nazi or communist ideas, because they present a threat to the democracy. I don’t know the Irving’s case, but I assume that denying of Holocaust is forbidden in Austria.
By the way, it doesn’t suprise me at all that you chose Irving for your historic idol.
He was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment in accordance with the Austrian Federal Law on the prohibition of National Socialist activities (officially termed Verbotsgesetz, “Prohibition Statute”) for having denied the existence of gas chambers in National Socialist concentration camps in several lectures held in Austria in 1989. (Under the State Treaty of 1955 for the Re-establishment of an Independent and Democratic Austria, which Austria concluded with France, the United Kingdom, the USA and the USSR, Austria undertakes to prevent all Nazi propaganda. The Prohibition Statute forms part of the Austrian Constitution.)
As for on-topic,
In 1962, he wrote a series of 37 articles on the Allied bombing campaign, Wie Deutschlands Städte starben (How Germany’s Cities Died), for the right-wing German journal Neue Illustrierte. These were the basis of his first book, The Destruction of Dresden (1963), in which he examined the Allied bombing of Dresden in February 1945. By the 1960s, a debate about the morality of the carpet bombing of German cities and civilian population had already begun, especially in the United Kingdom. There was consequently considerable interest in Irving’s book, which was illustrated with graphic pictures, and it became an international bestseller.
In the first edition, Irving’s estimates for deaths in Dresden were between 100,000 and 250,000 — notably higher than most previously published figures. These figures became authoritative and widely accepted in many standard reference works. In later editions of the book over the next three decades, he gradually adjusted the figure downwards to 50,000-100,000. Today, casualties at Dresden are estimated as most likely 25,000-35,000 dead, and probably towards the lower end of that range.
Quoted from Wikipedia.
Hi, …mmm…mst…1000ydstare
I is completely with you agreeable, if military and industrial objects undergo bombardments, storages, railroad junctions and road - all which can be used by enemy for military purposes. This is on no account military crime. But in the case with Dresden this was differently.
"Drezna - this is the age-old name of Dresden. In Germany of it for the beauty of architecture they called German Florence. Dresden was noted for to entire peace its museums, in which were stored thousands of priceless works of skill. All this was destroyed during one day. Dresden was completely destroyed and burned-out utterly. 135 000 people perished together with the city on 13 February, 1945, almost million obtained injuries. To February 1945 in Dresden besides local residents it was located about 600 000 refugees - women, children, old men. They and steel, mainly, by the victims of bombardment. First of all let us note what precisely military targets they find on the territory of Dresden and what precisely objects were located in the zone of direct bomb attack.
1)V 5 km to the east from the center in the suburb Dresden -Stra1zen: the optical plant of Zeiss.
2) to the West from the station on Fraybergershtrasse: the glass factory of Siemens
3) in 7-8 km to the southeast from the center, suburb Dresden -No1derze1dliq: plant To saksenverke, the production of radars and electronic components for A.E.G.
4) 14 km to the northeast from the center, in Radeberge: the second plant To saksenverke
5) on Grossenkhaynershtrasse to the north from Dresden- Neustadt: the plant Of gekhleverk, which belongs also to Zeiss, prozvodstvo of fuses for the anti-aircraft shells of navy
6) Dresden -Fridrixwtadt: the cigarette factory Grayling
7) old arsenal (in spite of the freightening name, any explosive and there were projectiles there not beginning from 27 December, 1916, when on the siding tracks caught fire and exploded train with the ammunition), in the building of arsenal (7 km to the north from the center) was located industrial park, i.e., immediately several productions: tin cans for the cartridge belts, the radio, soap, dental of poroshek, sights and navigation instruments for the aircraft.
8)anti-gas factory.
9) two small plants for the production of components for the engines of Junkerss and part of the cab for the plant in Augsburg.
10) the Dresden technical university: research and is experimental -kronstruktorski1 the center, which conducts in particular works on an improvement in fuel system V -2.
11) to the northeast from the center in 4 km - the infantry barracks
ALL these objects was BEYOND the limits of the zone of the bombing Other military targets (also beyond the limits of this zone): bunker SS to the north from Grosser Gartena, military transport park is the command of air defense zone, the fuel depots and machine oils, the factory of Seidel, power station Of Vettin and Yokhanshtadt. None of the railway stations (Neustadt, Vettin, central station) in the direct zone of bombing was located. Only central telegraph find on the territory of the very zone of bombing. And although Dresden was the most important center of communication of eastern front with the Reich, to raise for this one purpose hundreds of aircraft would be unjustifiably… ".
and more…
“According to the copies of the documents, obtained by David Irving in the archives of the English and British Governments, the purpose of attacks was a total maximum quantity of victims among the innocent civilians, and so, as far as possible, the destruction of a maximum quantity of run from the Red Army soldiers and civil people. And they in this succeeded. And all this was thoroughly planned and completed by the high ranking persons of British and American governments, this was achieved via the fraud of its own citizens and soldiers, and by it, until now, not it was described about everything, which occurred”
As is evident central objective was the destruction of the greatest quantity of citizens. Certainly this it is possible to name “propoganda of Goebbels”, or the sick imagination of David Irving as some boldly they make. However, there are evidence of eyewitnesses of the bombings of Dresden, which confirm the quite worst.
This is what does write american Kurt Vonnegut
"about which was here to speak? There was clearly only one: it was assumed that the entire population of city, without any exception, must be destroyed, and each, who dared to remain among the living, it spoiled the matter. And American destroyers emerged from the smoke to look - not stir anything below. They saw the bills also of its satellites. Aircraft poured on them from the machine gun, but bullets flew by. Here aircraft saw, that along the bank of river also run some people. They them poured on from the machine guns. In some they burn "
Interestingly what “strategic purposes” destroyed bombers, even if escort fighters dived they downward and shot the townspeople scattering themselves in panic.
I think that the central objective of these bombings was the MAXIMUM TERROR OF THE CITIZEN OF GERMANY (and later Japan) . I do not justify fascists, during WW2 they equaled with earth ten it was municipal without the military necessity, it is simple because of the whim of the Fuehrer or for purposes of frightening.
But in me as in fundamental person the question arises: than the tactics of allies it is better than the tactics of Nazis? There can be you, 1000ydstare you do know?
Some quotes from a British WW2 vet on “Dresden: Barbarism and Vengeance”
Because they wanted “Total War” All over Europe they killed maimed and tortured. The were responsible for the death of at least 60 million. Thei behaviour in war, was in case anyone forgets… was barbaric in the extreme. Any one in any doubt? I can relate those crimes.
But mainly because Goebbels called for “Total war” that meant no mercy for man woman or child. His call for Total war was acclaimed by the screams of encouragemnt by the German people.So they got “Total War” so stop moaning they got away comparitively free considering what the Germans did,
Ask how does it compare with what the Criminal Division did to Warsaw.He that sows the wind reaps the whirlwind…Much of Germany was untouched…They are very lucky, they should have paid the full price.
Sapper
Rubbish…We were at war with Germany, This evil load that spread death and destruction across the whole of Europe, Scandinavia and the East. When you are faced with a mad dog intent on torture and cruelty of medieval proportions. Then you have top put them down, like you do mad dogs.
Look at what these “Germans” did… then complain about bombing them. That alone must make the victims of these evil men turn in their graves.
Retribution comes on bombers wings. After the indiscriminate bombing and the deaths of thousands of British people, it is the bloody arrogance of these Germans to complain about being bombed…That there are some left alive at the time is a mercy, for if they paid the full price for their crimes there would be precious little left of Germany, or its peoples.
So dont talk about the poor Germans! talk about their crimes, the tortures the death camps, Death camps that no one knew about, even though the stench of burning bodies could be detected for miles around, and the fact they were spread all over Germany.
We poor innocent Germans knew nothing about the crimes we committed… We never deserved to be bombed!
It makes your stomach turn with disgust…All this innocence… I recall the screaming crowds of “Heil Hitler” in their millions when they were winning…How the tune changes and the wimpering begins when they lose.
sapper
We never started the war…Heben Sie das Schwert auf, sterben Sie dann damit
The Germans screamed for Total war, then complained when they got it.
Coventry was devastated years before retribution arrived on Dresdens doorstep.
If you cannot stand the heat ? “Stay out the kitchen” At that time all Germans were our enemies. Sad but if you invade others Countries, and someone clobbers you, have little to complain about.Whar I find sickening! is that anyone has the gall to complain about being bombed after what the German nation did, How many dead? 60 million.
In my opinion, as one that took part in the struggle to lift the evil of the Nazi yoke from Europe. In the end, the Germans got off relatively lightly, when you consider the torture, the concentration camps, the murder of my mates they captured in Normandy. (12thSS) The countless crimes, The slaughter…Stop complaining, and thank your lucky start you still have a Country. For if the same destruction the Germans created across the world, was replicated in the Fatherland, there would be nothing left.
Sapper
Thanks for information Dani. In any event were in Dresden killed by 35 000 either 100 000 or 200 000. These were in essence civil people. Military crime was not the fact that allies they bombed Dresden, but the fact that their CENTRAL OBJECTIVE WAS THE TERROR OF CITIZEN. Just as in TOKYO, HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI.
In the first edition… 250,000
next three decades… 50,000-100,000.
Today…25,000-35,000 dead, and probably towards the lower end of that range
Judging by tendency,Dani, I will not astonish if in ten years later in Wikipedia they write about Dresden:
“it was only of 5 000 victims, and this was made on the order Stalin”
In the West it unfortunately became the sign of a good tone to justify the murders of the civil Germans at the end WW2.
This misses a critically important lesson the British learned from being on the recieving end of a sustained strategic bombing campaign. If you bomb a factory, within a few days you can dig the machines out of the rubble, string a tarpaulin over the roof and be producing again. The UK did it regularly during the blitz.
However, if you hit the city centre this generally takes out the utilities (water, electricity, etc.) and massively disrupts the workforce. This actually has far more of an effect on production than “precision” bombing of factories. It is notable that when they had the choice over Japan and access to all the data the US switched to night area raids aimed at causing firestorms. Depending on how you rate sources, the most deadly air raid in history was over Japan (9-10 March 1945). Besides, the distributed nature of much of Japanese industry of the time would in any case give few effective alternatives.
It was specifically requested by the Soviets at Yalta that the Western Allies should hit Dresden to take it out as a communications centre. And when you compare the force that hit Dresden with that used against other German citices (Hamburg, Berlin, Nuremburg) it is actually surprisingly small. The devastation of Dresden had far more to do with
Such a raid was indeed mooted (it was known as Operation “Thunderclap”). However, the evidence that Dresden, Chemnitz and the other cities hit with about the same force at the same time were part of Thunderclap and not hit for other reasons (Dresden following the Soviet request at Yalta for instance) is somewhere between thin and nonexistent.
An eyewitness in Dresden would be competent to describe what went on, but would be completely unable to describe the intent behind it. For that, the relevant witnesses would be in Washington DC, Yalta, Whitehall or Bentley Priory (? not sure if this was HQ Bomber Command at the time).
The story of escort fighters (usually held to be P-51 Mustangs) strafing refugees is a common one associated with Dresden. However, none of the contemporary accounts mention it, and most recent histories (notably the work of Götz Bergander who was a child in Dresden during the bombings) have discredited this idea.
Simple. By the laws and customs of war as they existed at the time, the Allied actions were lawful if unpleasant, while many of the German actions constituted war crimes. If you are in any doubt about the legality of the Allied attack on Dresden, I suggest you read the relevant international law of the time (the 1907 Hague convention). Articles 25-27 are the relevant ones. There are any number of copies on the interweb - I tend to use the Avalon project one here - http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm - but any will do.
In much the same way after the war all the Germans suddenly became anti-Nazis?
Strange to think that the Allied Bombing campaign can be considered a War Crime, when at the same time as Dresden the Soviets were Raping their way through Eastern Germany.
The fact is that Stalin asked for the bombing, the RAF and USAAF wanted to continue the bombing, and oh yes, Germany hadnt surrendered yet.
I hate to say it, but Hitler was reaping his whirlwind, not good for the ordinary German citizen, but then again, they shouldnt have voted for him!
I just deleted my last post here and I have to apologise for that.
I will kindly ask Firefly to moderate this discussion (even if he haven’t yet the proper tools for moderation on the board).
For what it’s worth Dani I didn’t see anything wrong with that post.
I cannot moderate if I am involved in a discussion. My post was subjective. You as well as others didn’t see anything wrong with that post, Chevan and other Russian members might considered offensive that post. My feelings have nothing to do with my moderation. This is the reason on which I deleted my post.
OK I will be monitoring this thread from now on, even without my superpowers!
Ref the bombing of dresden again, the city was bombed because it was the centre of mass. IT was the easiest point to hit. Not necesarily to cause terror (early shock and awe?). The point raised about destroying the utilities of the cities is also relevant, this was one of the key desireable ends to the breaching of hte dams in the Ruhr by the Dambusters.
Ref the florence of Nazi Germany. Couldn’t care less, a few paintings and statues… boo hoo. Matters not. Coventry had a very nice cathedral once. Course I have never seen it as it is a mere shell now, cheers Adolf. There are a fair few places in Britian that were destroyed by the war. And we nearly lost both St Pauls and Buckingham Palace… thanks Herman you fat waster.
Interestingly, the Frauenkirche was destroyed when the Luftwaffe film archive (kept in the basement/crypt) caught fire. Thus, the church (which should have been a protected place under the Hague convention) was in fact a legitimate military target.
I find it somewhat strange that you Chevan are in the role of “devil’s advocate” writing about Allies conducting what you call “TERROR OF CITIZEN”.
I don’t want to mention Stalin’s experiments on your own country, because it would be gross off-topic.
But I would like to remind you and other member which discuss in this thread, about other German cities flattened by soviet artillery. What is more premeditated, one night raid of Allied planes on Dresden or week by week systematic artillery bombardment of Breslau?
I attached a few photographs of Danzig in 1945.
You can see German civilians fleeing approaching soviet forces.
Were they terrorized or not?
Please understand me well - I’m not questioning legitimacy of targets of the soviet artillery and the way they conducted war. Battles are battles, doesn’t matter where - in Normandy or East Prussia.
It is just strange for me that questions about Hiroshima, Tokyo and Drezno are coming from this direction ultimately supported by D. Irving views.
It looks like smokescreen for me.
What about “Wilhelm Gustloff” sinking? Was it legitimate target or terror?
Lancer44
Lancer, give not we will examine the actions of enemies in WW2 with the primitive of the positions of the fight of “good and evil”. In no way I justify Nazis, but burning by napalm of the historical part of Dresden together with the population it is not possible to name otherwise as THE “TERROR OF CITIZENS”.
If you want to have a talk about the actions of Soviet artillery, if you please, open new thread.
Dani, where you look!
Hold your horses Chevan like I hold mine.
its mean rules on this forum only for me. OK.
Off-topic:
No mate, the rules on this forum are for everyone.
As for “off-topic” post, a moderator or an administrator decides if they are off-topic or on-topic.
In your case, in this thread you spoke also about Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and David Irving. It would be necessary so far to open threads only for those remarks?
Of course, if you’ll post about the actions of Soviet artillery as a reply to:
I will open a new thread (or Lancer as you suggested).
Mate, in fact, what bothered you?