Dresden - War Crime or Justified?

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#61

At the conference of allies in Yalta they were actually negotiated agreement about the mutual military actions. In particular, the Soviet command requested to support the offensive of the Red Army by air strikes. Speech went on also about the bombardment of railroad it was main in Dresden and Leipzig in order to hinder the throwing over of German reinforcements. But STALIN NEVER REQUESTED ALLIES TO BOMB THE CENTER OF DRESDEN. This was the initiative of command RAF (on that seen of Cherchil itself).

At the end WW2 there were examples when RAF and USAAF they helped the Red Army. For example the bombardment of Koenigsberg before the assault, which on Hitler’s order was converted into the unapproachable “city- fortress”. Or the bombardment of well fastened Berlin during April 1945 before the completing assault. The military necessity for these actions is caused doubts not in whom (although from the airstrikes in Berlin perished also ten thousand simple citizens).
But combustion of tens of thousands of simple Germans in the city, which had no military targets; therefore not it was protected BY AIR DEFENSE, no military aim it pursued. This barbarous action not a bit did not break the desire of Germans to resist. On the contrary, this gave excess occasion to the ministry of Goebbels to harden Germans. Which led only to the bitterness of war and the excess victims.

#62

Kurt Wonnegut was prisoner of war in Dresden during the bombing and he for sure better understood situation how Gqotz Bergander which was then the child. In its to work the “slaughter house is number five or a crusade of children” (1969)
I will more greatly believe man, who saw some facts by its own eyes how to that who makes the conclusions.

#63

Guys. I think you are forgetting that ww2 was not last week and that the concept of area bombing was not regarded as criminal by the Governments of that time, as it may be by the same Governments today.

All of the Major Nations at some point bombed each others cities to degrees of devastation.

Now, Air Forces like the RAF and USAAF developed upon the German initial bombing aims and and vastly improved the effectiveness of their bombing. Strategic bombing was advocated by all of the nations both before and during the war.

To say that something that was regarded at the time as a part of normal warfare should suddenly be considered a crime just becuase we have a diffrent moral view of it today is ludicrous.

So was it a crime to carry out a legitimate aspect of warfare - cant have been, can it.

I’m not saying whether it was right or wrong, but it wasnt a war crime by the standards of the day. If you take this view then almost all aspect of history can be called criminal by todays standards. Rome was a slave-ocracy but we dont call them criminal every time we say how civilised they were etc.

As for off-topic. Licence is allowed on these forums to stray into other areas as long as they quickly return to the main theme and are relevant and the MODs will judge if and when this is happening and split topics accordingly.

Cheers

editted for grammar and spelling.

#64

I totally agree with Firefly’s point.

#65

I completely with you agreeable, Firefly.
I think that problem in the fact that Rome - this already history, and WW2 - for some peoples policy. Some our Eastern-European friends on this forum attempt to prove that i must something for them for the events of 60 years remotenesses. I as men fundamental, is forced to defend my point of view, although i do not have completely any desire to speak about some things. If you consider this thread stupidity, OK, can simply not turn to it attention. If to you there is that to say, I is ready with you news consideration.

#66

Chevan,
nobody wants antything from you. But please, be aware that when you lie and deny facts, you’ll face an opposition.

#67

No difference. The only effective way the RAF had of hitting the rail link through Dresden was to take out the centre of the city. At the time it was also the most effective way anyone had yet come up with of knocking down railway links (much more effective than US “Precision Bombing” - which during the winter was actually less accurate than RAF area bombing).

Vonnegut was writing a work of fiction. Bergander was a serious historian writing a work of fact. If you prefer to believe fiction over fact, go right ahead.

Interestingly, shortly before the start of WW2 aerial bombing was regarded as the most humane way possible to fight a war. The trenches had a deep and profound effect on Western European thought, and by the time the war actually got going and they realised what they had let themselves in for the industrial priorities were already set and they had no option. Even relatively minor changes (e.g. fitting armour and armament on an reasonable scale to RAF bombers to enable them to fly by day) were impossible.

#68

It is wrong to compare the “city- fortress” of Breslau( where with the assault the Red Army lost killed 9000 people and 270 tanks) with practically civil Dresden. Breslau despaired resisted even after a drop in Berlin. Its destruction was military necessity, since dispatch combat for each house (as in Stalingrad and Berlin).

I see you like show.OK.
Give let us compare the pictures.

Streets of Dresden after the bombing.

Corpses there was so much, that them they added into the large heaps directly on the street and they burnt.

Gigantic fiery tornado rose from many fires in the city. It burnt entire oxygen and people in the air-raid shelters began to choke. Those who attempted to be selected to the street they perished in hell of fire.

Dresden. Apocalypse 1945.
Where civilians , Lancer ?
they all are dead.
BECAUSE IT WAS NOWHERE RUN.

more photos, please
http://www.fpp.co.uk/overflow/Dresden_gallery
P.S. Can someone he will say that this the work of Fotoshop?

#69

This work (“slaughter house is number five or a crusade of children”) Vonnegut NOT FANTASY, these are its memoirs.
But than Bergander is more serious than D.Irving? Your facts?

#70

Kovalski, if you not can say anything essentially, just shut the mouth.

#71

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0586033289/026-6487865-5077240
category: fiction

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?isbn=0385312083
category: historic fiction

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?isbn=9780440180296&z=y

FROM THE PUBLISHER
Slaughterhous-Five is one of the world’s great anti-war books. Centering on the infamous fire-bombing of Dresden, Billy Pilgrim’s odyssey through time reflects the mythic journey of our own fractured lives as we search for meaning in what we are afraid to know.

My bold.
There is a difference between fiction, science-fiction, memories and historic books.
In fact, why should I be bothered? Believe whatever you want.

#72

And that’s the whole truth about your person.
Fortunately, I don’t consider you as a partner for coversation.
I’m not going to lower myself to answer your post in such inpolite way.
Too bad that your behaviour can be recognized as a confirmation of stereotypes.

#73

Chevan, I know your English is not as good as mine (believe me my Russian is non existant), so I will give you the benefit of the doubt for the above as you may not have meant it how I read it.

However, please be aware that everyone here is entitled to their own opinions and if you continue to post replies like this one you will end up being warned.

You have some interesting things to say, but please do not get into insults while doing them. The first rule of having a debate is to be civil.

Remember this in future, thanks.

Editted for Biff spelling.

#74

Chevan, why I’m not surprised of your reference as the site of Holocaust denier David Irving?

Maybe his site is more useful for your purposes than a simple search:
http://images.google.com/images?num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-14,GGLJ:en&q=dresden%20bombing&sa=N&tab=wi

#75

Respected Firefly, I agreeable that my post was too sharp. We discuss here questionable theme. On this problem do not have general opinion even the professional historians. I have its point of the sight, but also to me are interesting facts which I learn from prf27, Dani and others. But when someone blame me in the lie, in me appears response reaction.

#76

This novel they can sell even in the division of “Fairy tales for the adult”. Your problem in the fact that itself of Kurt Vonnegut never considered this book AS FANTASY.
This is what he writes in the preface to the book:

VERY LONG AGO HE WAS THE AMERICAN INFANTRYMAN (NONCOMBATANT DUTY) I, AFTER FALLING Into CAPTIVITY, HE BECAME THE WITNESS OF THE BOMBARDMENT OF THE GERMAN CITY OF DRESDEN (“FLORENCE IN ELBA”) I it can ABOUT THIS DESCRIBE, BECAUSE IT SURVIVED. THIS NOVEL IS PARTLY WRITTEN In THE SLIGHTLY TELEGRAPHIC- SCHIZOPHRENIC STYLE.

It as writer does not operate with precise numbers. To it this it is not must not historian. But it in the terrible details transfers the atmosphere of the nightmare of bombing in Dresden.

You certainly know writer Solzhenitsin.He using literary methods very accurately transmitted the terrible atmosphere of life into THE GULAG. However, his number about the total number of victims of Stalin repressions it undergoes criticism. But no one calls its novels FANTASY.

#77

The book also involves him being abducted by aliens and founding the most popular religion on earth before being murdered. As such, you’ll have to excuse me if I take it less than seriously as a historical document.
And saying that being bombed was seriously unpleasant is undisputed. What is disputed here is whether it was legally and morally justified given the laws and technology of the time (two different things). War is a deeply unpleasant experience (and we have a number of people on this site with personal experience of various wars).

#78

Dani If you want to discuss THE HOLOCAUST open new thread.

D.Irving assembled enormous material about the bombing of Dresden and this recognize many who in detail it will be introduced to its work "Dresden. Apocalypse 1945 ".

#79

Chevan,

Please make an effort and try to understand properly what I want to discuss.

I was only concerned about your searching. That’s all mate.

Off-topic: Do you use that AltaVista translator? I ask you because your posts sounds very strange…
As a suggestion, please consider that translator as a help and not as a tool. The only way for learning a foreign language is to exercise.

#80

Dear prf27, certainly war brings terrible sufferings to all. And both sides are forced to accomplish the severe actions, which not always can be justified by military necessity. Problem in the fact that conquerors sometimes acted more amoral than conquered in ww2.