Of course ! 
pdf27, after the offensive in the Ardennes the Reich was deprived of last fuel stocks. Although in Germany still there was certain quantity of the aircrafts and war industry continued to let out the fighters, there was no fuel for their active application. Therefore German aviation at this time very little rose into the sky. Real protection from bombardments had only the cities, where was AIR DEFENSE guns (for example Berlin).
Dresden was absolutely defenseless.
Iâve managed to find a rather limited list of RAF Bomber Command losses by year here: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/strength.html
1939 40
1940 509
1941 985
1942 1543
1943 2474
1944 2904
1945 708
Itâs based on figures from Janeâs, so should be pretty reliable. If it is true, then the German air defences after the Ardennes offensive (around the start of January 1945) managed to destroy 708 bombers in five months. This despite the RAF dedicating a whole group of aircraft (100 group) to radio counter-measures, a major ground organisation doing the same thing, a large number of Mosquito night fighters acting as escort to the bombers and the bombers themselves being equipped with penetration aids (mainly chaff - called âwindowâ at the time and a device called âcarpetâ which transmitted engine noise over the frequencies the Germans used for night fighter control). If you read accounts by German night fighter pilots towards the end of the war they definately felt like they were being hunted by the RAF from the moment they turned their engines on to the moment they turned them off.
Despite all this, Bomber Command suffered 708 aircraft lost over Germany. That kind of suggests to me they were anything but defenceless.
On the excellent site http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeugbau/stuckzahlen.htm
I found this so far:
Ergibt GesamtstÀrke Ende MÀrz 1945 Summe~23.109
Tranlating that page with Google, http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient-menuext&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eluftarchiv%2Ede%2Fflugzeugbau%2Fstuckzahlen%2Ehtm
I found that itâs written"
Total strenght [of the Luftwaffe] at the end of March 1945 - Total: ~23.109 [planes]
Remeber that itâs about the total number of the Luftwaffe planes on all fronts and countries (including for instance Norway).
As for Germany and particulary Dresden, as I donât know German (only few words) it will take a while searching for the right figures.
Edited for correcting tags.
A german point of view (on page 4 of this thread):
Thanks for the link, pdf
Yes ,although German aviation continued to remain by serious enemy to the very crash of Reich, at the same time no one can fail to note, then into 1945 Luftvaffe it had no possibility to cover entire territory Germany, only separate strategically important objects. Such objects unconditionally did not include Dresden.
still , I do not have information about a quantity of German aircraft, which protected Dresden from the bombers. Also i do not have information about the losses of the aviation of allies in Dresden.
But as recalled Kurt Vonnegut escort fighters (P -51) dived downward and shot from the machine guns of the people run away in panic.
Why did they it?
From the boredom.Or from a deficiency of the German fighters in air.
Thats what i find net
http://chudesa.by.ru/drezden.html ( i donât know where this sourse in english)
In the fall of 1944 allies encountered the unexpected problem: heavy bombers and escort fighters became so much, that the industrial purposes did not be sufficient for them: however, not to sit without the matter. And to the complete satisfaction of Artur Harris not only Englishmen, but also Americans began to consecutively German cities. To the strongest films were subjected Berlin, Stuttgart, Darmstadt, Freiburg. The destruction of Dresden in the middle of February of 1945 became the apogee of the actions of mass murder. At this time the city was literally flooded by tens of thousands of refugees from the eastern regions of Germany. Slaughter house they began 800 English bombers on the night with 13 on 14 February. In the center of city were collapsed 650 thousand igniting and explosive bombs. In the daytime Dresden bombed 1 350 American bombers, next day - 1 100. The center of city was literally effaced from face of the earth. In all were destroyed 27 thousand habitable and 7 thousand public buildings. How much perished townspeople and refugees, it is unknown, until now. Immediately after war the American State Department reported 250 thousand those be killeden. Conventional is now considered number ten times less - 25 thousand, although they are encountered and other numbers - 60 and 100 thousand people. In any event Dresden and Hamburg can be supplied to one row with Hiroshima and Nagasaki: "when fire from the burning buildings burst open through the roofs, above them rose the column of incandescent air with a height of about six kilometers and with a diameter of kilometer three⊠Of vskorosti air incandesced to the limit, and everything which could be set on fire, it was envelopped in fire. Everything burnt utterly, i.e., it was trace from the fuels it did not remain, only the temperature of fire-site was reduced so, that in two days it was possible at least to approach the burn region ", testifies eyewitness.
I agree , that figures can be contested. But in any event this was terribly.
Newsbreak in Germany recently occurred
German procuratorship considers the comparison of the bombings of Dresden with the Holocaust as that legally permitted. This solution agitated German Jews, reports Telegraph.
Demand into the procuratorship entered after during January of this year (2005) on one of the sessions of Saxe parliament deputies from NDPG arose in order to honor by the minute of the silence of the victims of the bombardments of Dresden during February 1945. Historians consider that with the act of British aviation then they perished from 35 to 500 thousand innocent civilians. After this, word took the chapter of nationalists in the local parliament Holger apfelâ (Holger Apfel). In his opinion, in last year World War II the Britons acted not better than Germans into 1939. Deputy named the bombings of RAF the âcooly planned industrial- mass destruction of Germansâ and he compared it with the Holocaust. The statements of the leader OF NDPG caused interference wave in Germany. Saxe nationalists they accused of the fact that they destroyed the German laws, which limit the use of word the âHolocaustâ. Even 60 years after a drop in the third Reich a question of the mass destruction of Jews is so delicate, the each public reference about it becomes the object of close attention from the side of state and it can entail serious administrative penalty. However, in this case attorneys did not find anything prejudicial and refused to institute proceeding. According to the representative of the procuratorship of Hamburg, it did not perceive crime in the public appearance of the deputy
Way 35-500 thousands already!!!
are there Germans in this forum ? its very interestingly to me that they think about this.
And about Artur Harris and âeffective bombingâ
âŠEverything changed on 21 February, 1942, when the Air Marshal Artur Harris became new commanders of bombardment aviation of royal AF. The amateur of descriptive expressions, he immediately promised âbomb outâ Germany from the war. Harris proposed to forego the practice of the destruction of specific goals and to carry out bombing on the urban areas. In his opinion, destruction it had to, undoubtedly, blow up the spirit of citizen, and, first of all, working industrial enterprisesâŠ
One German fighter pilot recalled: "I once saw the night raid from the earth. I stood in the crowd of other people at the underground station of the metro, the earth shuddered with each bomb burst, woman and children shouted, the clouds of smoke and dust penetrated through the mines. Any, who did not experience fear and horror, had to have a heart from the stone ".
The anecdote was popular at that time: whom it is possible to consider coward? Answer: the inhabitant of Berlin, who left by volunteer to the front⊠(!!!)But nevertheless to wholly destroy city in no way it was impossible, and in âNelson airâ was borne the proposal: "we can completely lay Berlin, if part American AF takes. This will to us cost 400 - 500 aircraft. Germans will pay by defeat in the war ". However, the Americans did not share of optimism Harris .
Meanwhile in the English management dissatisfaction commanding bombardment aviation grew. Harrisâs appetites increased so, that during March 1944 Defense Minister J. grigg, presenting to parliament the budget estimate of army, he said: âI take to itself courage to say that on the production of some heavy bombers alone occupied as much workers, as on the execution of the plan of entire armyâ. At that time English defense economy to 40 - 50% worked on one aviation, and to satisfy the ever-growing demands of chief bombardier indicated land forces and fleet. Because of this the Admirals and Generals, putting it mildly, too did not relate well to Harris, but that was as before obsessed by the idea âto vybombitââ Germany from the war. But here exactly nothing it was obtained with this. Moreover from the point of view of losses the spring 1944- GO became the heaviest period for English bombardment aviation: on the average of loss for the departure they reached 6%. On 30 March, 1944, in the course of raid in Nuremberg German night fighters and gunners brought down 96 of 786 aircraft. This was truly âblack nightâ for RAF.
The actions of Englishmen could not break the spirit of the resistance of population, while the actions of Americans - in a decisive manner decrease the release of German defense production. All possible enterprises were distributed, and strategically important plants were hidden under the earth. During February 1944 during several days half of the aircraft plants of Germany underwent the air raids. Some were destroyed to the base, but production they very rapidly restored, and they moved plant equipment into other regions. The production of aircraft continuously grew and reached its maximum in summer 1944.
The above seems to suppose that the USAAF only targetted production facilities and caused little civilian casualties while the RAF was evilly pounding German Civilians into the dust.
Of course that is just not true, as the trials and tribulations of the US Bombing effort are well documented. One of the US raids on Schweinfurt incurred so many casualties that the whole fleet was ârestedâ. The plain fact is that even the USAAF recognised that area bombing was the only way at the time to achieve it aims.
Editted to correct Sp.
I did try to post a substantial reply to this last night, but the site refused to accept it. The main point I was trying to make was that the US switch to area bombing over the winter of 1944-45 was more driven by the fact that they couldnât see targets to bomb due to bad weather than by any other factors. Even Japan (much more heavily bombed than Germany) still had a large number of planned targets at the point it surrendered.
PDF, top tip that I use when creating a long post. Use word etc to write it, then if it does not work you havent wasted all your effort and can try again.
I use Opera rather than Exploder so that when going back the contents of boxes are still there (rather a nice feature - works going forward as well if youâve previously gone back). Hence I could have saved it, but it was nearly 1am and my bed was calling out to me so I couldnât be bothered.
I think we went away from the thread.
I would not want here to explain who bombed more and better: RAF or USAAF. In the Dresden, both fleets differed with the cruelty. As write the eyewitnesses of tragedy , weather it stood excellent. Not there was fire at AIR DEFENSE guns , therefore bombers lowered by the minimum height and produce bombings with good accuracy.It was quite evidently to pilots where they threw bomb. They saw as the townspeoples burn in the fire.
I understand that at that time no one pitied for Germans. I read that after the bombing of Dresden in the Soviet press was article of one military journalist. He with enormous happiness wrote about of hundred thousands killed Germans. And he sincerely thanked allies for this action of retribution. He wrote approximately following: "the Germans now will answer for hundreds ransacked and burnt our sities, for millions of killed Soviet people. Let us say for this enormous thanks to our brave allies⊠"
Howeve, the Soviet military command (although with the approval related to the actions of allies) suspected that allies with the excessive zeal destroy the German industrial objects, which fell into the Soviet zone of occupation.Also they thought that excessive cruelty with the bombing of Germanâs sities it on the way of the Red Army it will not lead to the furious resistance of Germans. Stalin considered that the less the Germans remained in the German cities, the better it will be. Becouse he planned to transmit some german territory to east european countries (Poland as example).
Today, I think peace must look at events WW2 without the ideological cliches. We condemned the military crimes of Germans however, until now, we justify our own crimes.
I dont see anything to justify?
Bomber Command and the USAAF in Europe flew their missions as directed.
I dont recall any systematic targetting of Jews or Poles etc by the Allies, as far as I am aware, no Western Allied prisoners of war were sent directly to Gulags for being suspected of collaboration just because they were prisoners.
No Dresden was what it was, another bombing mission to destroy a communications hub and inflict as much hurt as possible onto Nazi Germany.
Harris was not kidding when he stated that they had sown the wind and would reap the Whirlwind!
Hi Folks,
i agree with Firefly. At this moment there was war. And until the capitulation there was no reason to stop the bombing.
But on other question arises here. I heard in a documentation that the fordwerke in Köln where not bombed because there where still american cpital in it. Is this true? And the later american airfield in berlin was not attacked exept for one strafing run.
If this is true i had cost many soldiers life.
Stahler
Alert > Alert > Alert, Moderators, please separate threads.
Stahlerâs interesting question doesnât have anything to do with Dresden bombing.
Regards,
Lancer44
No need to split anything up, people are allowed some license to go off topic in a post as long as the main theme is not lost in subsequent posts. Iâd be here all day splitting up threads otherwise.
Hi Stahler.
But the Nazis thus were justified. They, for example, was counted that violence above the citizen of the Ukraine and Belorussia was necessary, because âthere was warâ and population sympathized to partisans.
They also justified the mass deportation of slav population to the German plants as the slaves with the fact that âit was the warâ.
Goebbels issued a call German soldiers to be merciless to his enemies. As result the mass executions of prisoners of war and monstrous conditions in the camps. Because it âwas total warâ.
Some Nazis on the Nuremberg tribunal attempted to be justified by phrases of the type: âthere was warâ and âthey have orderâ. This did not help them.
I think its not serious argument for the defense of the war crimes.
what hear I am , Lanser? . You recalled about Breslau?
Chevan, calm down! You already read Fireflyâs answer.
Hi Chevan,
my meaning âit was warâ was not the meaning all is justified.
If we go very high above the field we can said:
Dresden was picked as target for reason the planning staff knows. I think this will right. The bombers started attacked the city and got home. They killed people. In a war people will be killed. This view is cynical yes i know.
Remember we look very high above the field, this is the generals or the politicans view.
I think most of us know what i am meaning. And when we took this look further we will come to other conclusionsâŠ
It was not my meaning to justifie warcrimes.
If i have hurt you i will appologise for that.
Stahler
An interesting reading about Irvingâs âDestruction of Dresdenâ:
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/evidence/evans005.asp#5.2