Dresden - War Crime or Justified?

You have not hurt me, mate. I just see that you fear openly talk on some themes on this forum.

I think most of us know what i am meaning. And when we took this look further we will come to other conclusions…

what do you mean? You think it let us arrive at the justification of fascism? You deeply be in error.

… They killed people. In a war people will be killed. This view is cynical yes i know.

You even do not represent how this point is cynically. The conscious destruction of an enormous quantity of citizens for the some hours cannot be explained “because there was war”.

Dani, we do not discuss book David Irving here. He not single who wrote about Dresden. But his book “Dresden.Apocalipse 1945” is certainly very interesting, although it does not pretend to the absolute accuracy. The material, which it selected immense. Possibly number in 250 thousand killed in Dresden is overstated. But if this is Goebbels’s propaganda, then 25 thousand killed - this is allies propaganda.
The attempts of some historians (like Götz Bergander) to decrease the number of victims of Dresden have political motives.
The real number of victims in Dresden we probably do not learn ever; however, 25000 those killed for the city, where were saved almost million refugees and which was to 57% burnt for some hours - it’s complete nonsense.

I found more interesting information

“the majority of Americans much heard about the bombardment of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but only a few know about that which greater people perished in Dresden how it was destroyed in any of these it was municipal. Dresden was the “experiment” of allies.

They wanted to explain, possible to create fire storm, after throwing out thousands of incendiary bombs to the center of city. Dresden was the city of the priceless cultural treasures, which were not touched to this moment of war. Bombardment set on fire entire city, creating the hurricane of wind, which even more greatly fanned flame. Asphalt melted and sailed along the streets as lava. When air attack was finished, it was explained that perished about 100 thousand people.

To avoid the spread of the diseases of authority they burnt remains of tens of thousands of people in the grotesque funeral bonfires. I do sincerely ask itself, was the bombardment of Dresden military crime? There was this crime against humanity? Than were… guilty children, who be killwas by most terrible of deaths - by burning alive.”

David Duke, the American historian:
“Germans incorrectly call Winston Churchill war criminal. Churchill cannot be so named in the juridical sense of this word at least because the conqueror, even if he accomplishes military crimes, cannot be appealed such in the judicial order. To it is more right name Churchill criminal personality, criminal.”

Thomas Friedrich, the English historian:
" By the purpose of present article it will open slightly one of the ominous pages World War II - bombardment of Dresden, which is unknown to the wide circle of people despite the fact that the crime, written on it, exceeds Hiroshima and Nagasaki. "
Kurt Vonnegut, how this was possibly, described about it - and he “became silent”.

… To Thursday on 13 February the flow of refugees, who escape themselves from the offensive of the Red Army, which was located already in 60 miles, increased the population of city to million and the more of men. Refugees arrived with each hour, and thousands of people were arranged by camps directly on the streets, hardly covered by rags and shaking from cold. However, people felt themselves in the relative safety, and although the mood was gloomy, circus actors gave ideas in the overfilled halls, where thousands of unhappy came to forget to some period about the horrors of war.
… No one into these minutes could occur that less than in twenty-four hours these innocent children will alive burn in the fiery water spout. When the first alarm signals marked the beginning of 14- hour hell, citizents obediently dispersed on their refuges. But without any enthusiasm, assuming that the anxiety is false. Their city to that not was never attacked from air. Many never believed, that this great Democrat as Winston Churchill, together with another great Democrat by Franklin Delano Roosevelt they will decide to execute Dresden by total bombardment. What did move by Churchill? Political motives. .
. But there was in front the Yalta conference, at which the allies intended to member the tormented body of Europe. Churchill wanted to play “bargaining chip” - certain immense Anglo-American act, which “will produce impression” on Stalin, too independent and too clever, who collected too large a force. This map, as it proved to be more lately, not “played” in Yalta, since the poor weather abolished the planned raid. But Churchill insisted on raid nevertheless being carried out where conveniently, explaining this by the need for choking the will of German population in the rear.
Hardly the inhabitants of Dresden were radiated on the air-raid shelters, the first bomb was discarded to the city - into on 22.09 13 February, 1945, the attack continued 24 minutes. City was converted in the sea of fire. “model bombing on the purposes” created the desired fire storm. This entered into the calculations of inclined to the humor and loving of the cigar of “Democrat”. Storm began, when hundreds of smaller fires were connected up one, huge. The gigantic masses of air were sucked into the formed funnel and was created artificial water spout. Those unhappy, which raised vortices, it flung directly into the flame of the burning streets. Those, who hid underground, choked with the oxygen deficiency, elongated from air, or died from the heat - the heat of such force, that was melted the human flesh, and moist spot remained from the man.

Eyewitness, who survived this, says: “I saw young women with the children on the hands - they ran and fell, their hair and clothing lit up, and they terribly shouted until the falling walls buried them”. After the first raid there was three-hour pause. Calm enticed people from the shelters. In order to rescue from the fatal heat, thousands of inhabitants were directed in Gross -Garten, wonderful park in the center of Dresden with an area of one-and-a-half square miles. But hangmen everything calculated… The second raid began in 01.22. Alarm signals did not operate. Sky covered a doubly larger quantity of bombers with the incendiary bombs aboard. This wave was intended in order to enlarge fire storm to Gross -Gartena and to kill those, who were yet killed. This was the complete “success” of Anglo- Americans. During several minutes the strip of fire crossed grass, it envelopped trees and caught fire everything - from the bicycles to the legs and the hands. Still many days after that all this remained under opened by sky terrible reminding about the sadism of allies. In the beginning of the second attack many still crowded in the tunnels and the basements, expecting the end of the fires. In 01.30 to the rumor of the commander of rescue force, sent into the city with the risky mission, ominous crash reached. It thus described this: "detonation struck the glass of basements. To the crash of explosions was mixed some new, strange sound, which became increasingly more toneless and it is more toneless. Something resembling the rumble of waterfall. This was the howl of the water spout, which was begun in the city ". Those, who was situated in the buried shelters, died easily: they instantly burnt, as soon as surrounding heat suddenly sharply it were strengthened. They either were cindered or they were melted, impregnating the earth to three-four feet into the depth - to that there is many evidence. Soon after 10.30 mornings on 14 February to the city was brought down the last portion of bombs. American bombers “worked” entire 38 minutes. But this attack not was so severe as first two, to the scales, but not in the essence. This film was characteristic by the inventive sadism. “mustangs” flew by very low- and shot everything which moved. When last aircraft was hidden, the blackened streets of Dresden were useyany dead bodies. The stink was extended around the city. The flock of the carrion vultures flown away from the zoo grew fat on the corpses. Everywhere darted about rats one of those seen all this after bombing it immediately told: "in the tram depot was public restroom from chequered iron. At the entrance, after being buried by face into the fur coat, lay the woman of years of thirty, completely naked. In several yards from it lay two boys of years 8-10. They lay, having been strongly. Also naked… Everywhere, where obtained view, lay the people choking themselves with an oxygen deficiency. Apparently, they stripped from themselves entire clothing, attempting to make from it similarity of oxygen mask… " Here is the description of Dresden in two weeks. It belongs to a certain Swiss. "I saw, he says, torn arms and legs, mutilated bodies and heads, which were rolled out along the sides of streets. On the areas of body still they lay so tightly, which to go was necessary with the maximum caution ". Harvest death assembled rich. The dimensions of the Dresden “Holocaust” - 250.000 lives, taken away during 14 it is hour. This more than triply exceeds in number of victims of Hiroshima (71879). The apologists of allies, justifying (!) this slaughter house, make level Dresden with Coventry. But in Coventry for entire war perished 380 people, this cannot be compared with killed at once 250 thousand. Furthermore, Coventry was the storage of military reserves, i.e., by legal military aim. Dresden, which produces cups and saucers, the same not was. Hollywood distribution is “blitzkrieg to London” and many others, this altogether only one of the petty methods to demonizirovat’ enemy in spite of the right facts. For entire war London lost 600 acres of the earth. Dresden for one night -1600. The sole purpose in Dresden, which the large stretch could consider by serviceman, railroad depot - allies was not bombed on the irony of fate.

Horror on the streets of Dresden make possible to feel the stories of the eyewitnesses:

Two waves of 1299 “Lankasters” with the load of bombs into 4 kilotons departed from England in the daytime 13. This was Tuesday on the maslenichnoy week, and the streets of Dresden were filled by people in the holiday clothing, which walked on the stores or which simply went for a walk. In ten it is hour the evening above the city they appeared the first “christmas fir trees”, as at that time the signal bombs, which were being discarded before beginning bombing for target blip, called those being illuminating green light. Not there was any air defense whatever, only the sirens of air alert announced about the beginning of film. Inhabitants were fixed into the air-raid shelters and the cellars and remained there, until RAF lay out “carpet” from the incendiary bombs. After 15 minutes entire silence , but the people, which left the refuges, everywhere saw fire. City burnt, flame rapidly envelopped all blocks. From the charred remainders of buildings, which were deprived of roofs and of ceilings, upward shot up the sheaves of the flame, which began to be extended around the city horizontally, persecuted by western wind. Meanwhile, on the approach there was the second, where the more imposing wave of bombers. In 1:22 nights the sirens again howled. But by that time on the streets it was full people, which left their houses after the first raid. Prospectuses, parks, all open places were dammed by the inhabitants of Dresden, who were attempting themselves to somehow while away the remainder of night further from the fires ".

Recalls Sharlotta Mann, interview with which is brought by Aleksandr Makki in his book:
"impression was such, as if fire flowed directly from the skies. , where it was thus far dark, we saw the suddenly rocketed upward flame… when I it were examined and it looked in the center of city, then saw the there continuous sea of fire. And then all rushed in the outskirts in order to leave to the free space ".

Recollections of Margaret Frayer:
"because of the fallen from everywhere sparks and raged everywhere fiery hurricane i first anything I could examine. Present satanic boiler expected me there: there was street not, only obstructions from the stone into the meter by height, beaten of the glass-, collapsed beams, funnels. I attempted to bring down sparks from my coat, flapping on them by hand, but this it was uselessly. In the confusion I stopped, and here someone behind me shouted: “remove coat, it burns”. In this heat this I even it did not note. I tore away from itself coat and threw it. And here I again saw people directly before itself. They proceeded by cry and wave by hands, and then - with the horror and the consternation - I saw, as one after another they fell on. It seemed as if they shot down them, but my mind simply unable was to understand however, that it occurs in reality. Today I know that unhappy died of the shortage of oxygen. They lost consciousness, and then they became ashes…
Rabid heat… I cost, but something occurs with me, everything seems distant, and I cannot more normal see and hear. This there were also the consequences of oxygen starvation. Being loose, I poorly made with tens of steps, and it suddenly for me was possible to inhale fresh air ". Its Saviour is cold winter air, which was being striven for the replacement to the risen upward incandescent air masses. In the center of city the temperature of fire reached 2000 degrees, iron was melted and flowed along the streets, walls were converted from the heat into the sand and were scattered from the wind… Margaret frayer continues: Everywhere corpses, corpses and only corpses. Some completely black as coal. Others entirely tselekhon’kiye, as if in the sleep. Women in the holiday aprons, women with the children, that sit in the streetcars, as if they barely dozed off. Many women, many girls, many small children, the soldiers, whom could be recognized only on the metallic plates from the belts, and almost everything were exposed. Some corpses were brought down into the grouplets, as if this tseplyan’e for each other could save them from death. From some obstructions torchat of arm, head, leg, the crushed skulls… The majority of people appears, as if them they inflated, with the yellow and brown spots on the bodies. On some still rotted the clothing… my face it was the continuous mass of blisters, just as hand. Eyes could look only through the narrow chink, since the eyelids inflated from the burns, entire body was pited by small black dimples ". These “small black dimples” - the drops of napalm and phosphorus, which splashed incendiary bombs. These drops, falling on any surface, burnt it right through - as burnt to the bone the skin and muscles of man. It was not possible to extinguish incendiary mixtures by water, the part of the bombs was charged by mixtures, capable of burning and without the access of oxygen - it entered into their composition. Among the conventional incendiary bombs were discarded such, which began to burn exactly because of the contact with the water, the greater the water, the greater the flame. Above the city stood the wall of fire with a height of ten it was meter, and hot airflow rose to the kilometers upward. At a height of 7 kilometers the sky was seen to the crews of bombers in the form of the enormous turned pink cup, inverted upside down, and it began to throw their aircraft to the sides with the risen flows of incandescent air.
As this is similar in Hiroshima…
The glow of the blazing city was evidently on the earth at a distance into 80 kilometers. When the morning arrived, the light of the sun could not be opened through the smoke at dawn above Dresden it appeared the third wave of bombers, which consisted of 2000 American aircraft. To the ruins of residential sections again began to pour the fire…

Says Anna-Mary Vaemann:
"while we with difficulty overcame enormous obstructions from the collapsed walls and the roofs, the been charred building shells continued to fall around us. The nearer we approached the urban to center, the more terrible the destruction was. Locality resembled the landscape of crater, and then we saw corpses. Burnt or charred corpses, which were pressed to half of usual sizes. O, God Is gracious! … several men sat on the earth. But why they did not move? After approaching more closely, they everything became clear. They were dead. Their lungs broke from the shock wave ".
In the beginning of the following third, daylight raid already nothing it could notify people - all sirens of the air alert of burn or they were destroyed by bombs. However, they did not discard this time of incendiary bombs. Killers from the Pentagon thoroughly calculated the scenario of slaughter house. Now central objective was kill as much as possible those, who still Saviour. Then, in the evening, there was the fourth raid - the outskirts of city bombed already only. But again remained untouched railroad workshops, carriage depot, automobile bridge and industrial complex. Next day the rain, which converted the become depopulated ruins to the sea of mud and half sunk corpses, went. In the city there were 135 thousand dead bodies.

From the diary of the family Of Daniel’s:
"first corpses in the vans they transported for the burials in the outskirts of Dresden. Then remains they cremated in Al’tmarkte. Search and burials engaged several weeks, and all this time there was a danger of the appearance of epidemics. We survived simply miraculously. By what this was nightmare! Parents remained living, and their children perished, but more frequent orphaned children wandered in the searches of the corpses of parents. For them the life now lost any value ".

So, germans devised “gas chambers” , but our allies used “fire storm”.
What is more humane, that’s a question?

Maybe the Germans deserved it?

On what reason they deserved it, dear Firefly?
Becouse they supported Hitler? Or may be the children of Dresden was danger for the allies?
You exelent know that jews all of the world supported the war against Germany.
So, you want to say that “Maybe the jews deserved Holocaust”?

Hi Chevan,

“think most of us know what i am meaning. And when we took this look further we will come to other conclusions…”
“what do you mean? You think it let us arrive at the justification of fascism? You deeply be in error.”
My conclusion was :war is a crime.

“… They killed people. In a war people will be killed. This view is cynical yes i know.”
“You even do not represent how this point is cynically. The conscious destruction of an enormous quantity of citizens for the some hours cannot be explained “because there was war”.”

This point is cynical, because it takes only on the facts. It does not mention the death and despair of the people.
I agree with you about the sign of churchhill against Stalin. This is some point of high lvl view, he wants to set a cynical political sign.

At some times it seems that some bombings where done because the generals had their tools and they want to use it. A german coast city was also bombed in the last days for every citizen one bomb.
The first firestorm was created in Hamburg if i remember well.

I agree with you about you response of fireflys comment.
But you cannot set “Gas chambers” and “Firestorms” on the same level.

Gas chambers where massmurder.
I think the firestorm was a sort of “when you hunt the beast be carefull that you will not change also in a beast.” This means it is was not an “accident”.

I think it was clear for Churchill that this attack would cost many lives.

When you go up in the sky it was a bombardment if you go down to the street level it was a war crime.

Greetings Stahler

Do you realy think so? Let’s to count something.
The total quantity of victims of the bombardments of German are municipal according to the most conservative estimate during period (1942-45) is about 500 000 people.Although this number can be understated. Especially increased the “effectiveness” of bombardments the using of napalm from the end 1944.
In Japan were not less than 300 000 victims of atomic and napalm bombings of municipal. But how much did perish from ray sickness?
Thus the total quantity of victims “Fire storm” was about 800 000 people, in essence of civil.
The quantity of victims killed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz on the official version is 1,2 millions (however some peoples including Jewish researchers of the Holocaust speak about 700 - 850 thousand people in actuality).
Now you can compare itself “Gas chambers” and “Firestorms”.
What difference to compare “massmurder” and “not an accident firestorm” if the result is similar.

I agree with you about the sign of churchhill against Stalin. This is some point of high lvl view, he wants to set a cynical political sign.

I think it was the result of Churchill policy of “the restraining of bolshevism as further as it possible in the east” . The Soviet zone of occupation of Germany was destroyed by bombing into the crushed stone, while in the Allies zone of occupation some military plants remained unharmed.

I agree with Chevan. The people who planned the attack knew that so many innocent people would die. The allies were supposed to be freeing Europe(including Germany) from Hitler. How does killing German civilians achive this? It doesn’t. These attacks were intended to kill civilians directly or indirectly. Therefor I believe they were a war crime.

Hi Tiger, thanks for the understanding.

I just wonder what you want to prove Chevan… (???)
Using your twisted logic someone can say that Allied pilots were the same “war criminals” as SS crew in extermination camps.
Is this what you want as a conclusion for this thread?

And as always everything laboriuosly written to show that arch murderer, uncle Joe Stalin wasn’t that bad. He did not used gas chambers and “fire storms” and he also not tried to use atomic bomb.
Is this your real intention? Come on mate! Tell us!

Lancer44

He is saying that the allies killed nearly as many innocent people as the Germans did, therefor if the German killing of innocents are warcrimes then the allied bombings of innocent people should be warcrimes. He is pointing out a double standard, which I agree with.

Lancer I may have missed something, but I don’t see Stalin metioned in a way that says he didn’t or did have gas chambers etc?

I just want to prove that simple Germans are the same people as jews , Poles , Britons , Americans end other.
Using my “twisted” logic i jast want to show for you some obvious things, which majority of peoples attempt not to note.
I think there is no large difference to be conscious killed in the gas chamber or “by accident” burn alive from the bomb with the napalm.
I do not know who more it is guilty: the pilots of allies or command, but to me completely clearly that they consciously created the large evil.

History already sentenced uncle Joe for his crimes, Lancer. Against him it is sufficient proofs.
Who is next? Who was the “great champion of liberty by any methods” ?

There is a subtle difference - perhaps not for victims - but for objective outside observer, between killing in a gas chamber and bombing enemy city,
however difference between carpet bombing using B-29s and flattening whole quarters of the cities with Katyushas fire is not so subtle.

If you pointing at double standards existing in interpretation of history and your aim is a message “NO MORE WAR”, I’m wholly with you and will help you to defend your point.

I just have a bad feeling that you are aiming at some different target, which will be a logical step after members of this Forum will agree that basically Americans and British were as bad as SS or NKVD.
What will be your next step?

SS-Tiger misunderstood me - what I had in mind is simple conclusion that anything that portraits Allies on the equal level with nazis, as a matter of fact serve as an explanation and justification of Stalin’s deeds.

Maybe I’m wrong… but this what I feel and wanted to express it.
On the other hand I know a lot about Pacific War, invasion of Okinawa and American loses - AND I DON’T THINK HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI WERE WAR CRIMES. At the end of the day, those two bombs saved lives of perhaps millions of Japanese and several hundred thousand of American GIs.

Lancer44

Lanser ,i do not have any more forces to repeat special to you THIRD TIME about BRESLAU.
you do not understand the difference between the tactical rocket mortar BM-13 "Katyusha " (distance of the defeat of 8,5 km) and strategic bomber B -29 (distance of 6 000 km). BM-13 was used only near the front line and ONLY AGAINST THE FORTIFIED POSITIONS OF GERMANS.
Just armadas of strategic bombers had the capability to reach any defenseless city in the territory of Germany and to make funeral bonfire for all inhabitants.

If you pointing at double standards existing in interpretation of history and your aim is a message “NO MORE WAR”, I’m wholly with you and will help you to defend your point.

I am not idealist Lancer to talk “NO MORE WAR” . But my aim in this thread is TRUE about bombing of Dresden. And if you please , you can halp me to know it.
But while i see , you just try to transfer discussion to another theme.

I just have a bad feeling that you are aiming at some different target, which will be a logical step after members of this Forum will agree that basically Americans and British were as bad as SS or NKVD.
What will be your next step?

STOP your fantasy , Lancer. Nobody compares American and British soldiers (which brave battled with the fascism and which lost its lives) with NKVD and SS.
But for me is completely clearly that in the supreme political government and military command of England and USA were some peoples not better than the leaders of the Nazis.

…AND I DON’T THINK HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI WERE WAR CRIMES. At the end of the day, those two bombs saved lives of perhaps millions of Japanese and several hundred thousand of American GIs.

This is more insolently propoganda than everything that I heard in THE USSR.
If you wish we can discuss it in another thread.

So if I read most of the recent posts here correctly. All bombing in WW2 was a War Crime and should be recognised as such?

Isnt it the point that the Allied Bombing of Dresden was totally random in who died as opposed to the deliberate Genocide of millions of sub-humans in a pre-planned production line way?

After all the UK was a Capitalist state and surely they would think of a better way to kill German civilians than the costly Bombing offensive.

Why didnt they just drop poisoned gas?

Churchill suggested the poison gas attack after the V1 and V2 strated to fall in London but was deterred of that for his war cabinet, I think they fear the nazi reprisal.

Chevan, I did not even mentioned Breslau this time…
BM-13 Katyusha is an area saturation weapon. It was virtually impossible to aim it at fortified positions. Katyushas en masse are as deadly in urban areas as carpet bombing. Their usage in Berlin resulted in 152,000 German civilians dead.
I’m not saying that Red Army committed war crimes using Katyushas. They had as legitimate target as Dresden for Allied pilots.

What the difference it makes for civilian person to be killed by incendiary dropped from B-29 than incendiary rocket from Katyusha?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin

(BTW, I had an opportunity to see BM-21 Grad firing. (Not so distant cousin of Katyusha). Some rockets were 200 metres off the designated target area.)

Look here. http://zhukov.mitsi.com/sovietbombers.htm

You’ll learn about soviet bombing raids on “defenceless cities”. They achieved smaller results just for the simple reason that they had not enough strategic bombers.

Chevan, you just compared bombing of Dresden with Holocaust of Jews in extermination camps, am I right?
Your aim in this thread is to proof that …" in the supreme political government and military command of England and USA were some peoples not better than the leaders of the Nazis…" This is your aim.
I don’t have a great esteem for Roosevelt and Churchill, as a matter of fact they sold my former country and many other countries to Stalin, but comparing them to nazi leaders is a gross misunderstanding.

I think it is not a bad idea. But I would like to hear opinion of any American veteran about nukes dropped on Japan.
Not laptop humanists but veterans which soaked in blood, shit and sweat on Okinawa. Do you agree?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Edited once to correct spelling

They bombed Dresden knowing that lots of civilians would die. I believe that Dresden was bomb for the perpose of killing civilians. Poision gas would show that they intended to kill civilians and would have not set the city aflame.

Of course they did. No PGM in those days. I think many here are making the mistake of projecting todays values onto 1940’s actions.

The UK government took the deliberate policy in 1941 or area bombing because it was nigh on impossible to hit precision targets. Incedentally the Germans did the same in Europe, as did the Soviets who also bombed Berlin on many occassions. The US also switched to area bombing.

It can also be argued - what is a civilian when your nation is involved in Total War?

When civilians are making ammunition and Tanks and guns arent they supporting the war effort? Doesnt that make them a target?