It was, because it was aimed at killing inoccent people, as was the bombing of Dresden. The number of munitions or aircraft used is irrelevant, its the fact civilians being killed was the intention. If targeting civilians is not a war crime, then what makes the German gas chamber killings a war crime?
Well now we are going round in circles. If anyone doesnt understand why the deliberate Gassing of a whole group of people after they have been deliberately sought out and identified from the rest of the population is a war crime, while dropping bombs indiscriminately on a city isnt (by the standards of WW2), then I am at a loss to try and explain further.
The Bombs also killed Allied prisoners of war and foreign slave labourers. In fact Slave labourers were excluded from German Air Raid Shelters.
Has anyone any information on whether or not the Nazis considered it a War Crime? Because they sure as hell knew their Genocide was wrong as they tried to hide it from their own population.
I’d be curious to know if the Allies tried any German Luftwaffe officers based solely on area bombing of targets such as Rotterdam?
I won’t be holding my breath on this one. Of course Goering was tried, but I think that had to do more with his complicity in the Holocaust than anything else…
What the interesting standarts do you mean? MAybe to burn many tens thousants peoples in own cities it was THE STANDARD already?
I never affirmed that bombin of enemy cities (in common view) it was the war crimes. But in the case of Dresden it was the real War Crime (take into consederation the some facts) .
If the Nazi made henocide to manis peoples in WW2, it does not mean that allies has the moral right to murder mass of civil germans according itself STANDARTS.
I think that 3 500 allied bombers which burn 57% territory of Dresden could find a more legitime and military target ( Berlin as example) . But it’s my personal oppinion , of course.
You cannot project todays Moral standards into the past and somehow justify it.
They didnt see it as a War Crime in 1945 and neither did the Germans, ergo it wasnt.
What do you want the British to do? Apologise for fighting a ruthless war against a totally ruthless enemy? I firmly believe that if the Soviets had the capacity they would have fire-bombed every German City that they could.
I took time and read this thread from page 1 to the last one. It is amazing how some real opinions of members which stated that Dresden was a major communication hub and industrial centre, were swamped by almost hysterical statements about “murdering civilians”, “lack of any industrial targets in the area” and repeated lament about “major war crime comparable with Holocaust, gas chambers and incineration in crematories”.
Pure demagogy. At first I tried to search on the web for any solid evidence and discovered even more demagogy. “Dresden, city of museums, parks with no industry, no miltary, just some fine china factories and some small optical workshops.”
Hundreds of articles repeating the same song.
The first glimpse of truth come here:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0210/p14s02-bogn.html
"Critics have long held that the Allies had no legitimate reason for their devastating bombardment. (This reviewer found that the Soviet Military Encyclopedia- Dictionary claimed that Dresden “had no military significance.”) But as Taylor pursued this nagging question further, he discovered plenty of evidence of Dresden’s military importance.
He learned that it was the Russians, advancing into German territory by 1945, who had initially urged the Allies to “take care of” Dresden. It was the Soviets who named the intended raids, “Operation Thunderclap” ( Operatsiya Groza). The Soviet commanders knew, as did the Allies, that this city of one-half million was a major railroad and communications center. Military intelligence had determined that there were covert munitions factories located within the city. Also, Wehrmacht troops were known to be concentrated there in considerable numbers. Finally, Dresden, far to the south, was considered to be along a possible route by which the Germans could decide to retreat in order to establish a last-ditch, defensive “redoubt.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/02/60-years-ago-tonight-dresden-firestorm.html
“Dresden was a city of “no military importance.” This is also untrue, at least by the standards of the time. There were a large number of precision engineering companies headquartered in Dresden, many of which made instruments for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. Zeiss-Ikon manufactured precision optics in Dresden, much of which went in the later years of the war to sights for antiaircraft batteries. There was the previously mentioned hydrogenation plant. Many of these plants used Jewish slave labor in the later years of the war, when worker shortages were accute. Next, Dresden was an important rail transportation hub for all of Saxony and eastern Germany. Finally, there were a number of military barracks in and around the city. By any criteria used at the time, Dresden was a legitimate military target.”
Still all this is no hard evidence, just statements of journalists or historians. They cannot be verified and their value is the same as propaganda statements or works of biased “historians” - like Irving.
The second glimpse of hope show there:
http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_stories7.html
"
Roman, who worked in the ghetto’s metal factory, was now ‘adopted’ by an adult fellow-worker and his family, though Roman was expected to share his meagre ration of food with them and do the housework before going to the factory. ‘Instinct told me to agree to it: it would help me to survive.’ But the day came when the metalworkers were put on the train to Auschwitz - one of the last deportations from the Lodz ghetto. ‘Only 500 of us - Jewish men, women and boys - escaped the gas chambers. Our metalworking skills made us useful in a munitions factory.’
Roman ended up working in a labour camp in Dresden. The workers manufactured bullets in an airless basement, and slept in a dormitory above. When the Allies bombed Dresden, the building was hit, but the dormitories remained intact. The workers were sent off to collect people who had died in the bombing; they came back smelling bad, and the smell stayed with them and hung about the dormitory. ‘It was suffocating,’ Roman remembers."
Still not much. Memoirs of Jew ghetto survivor - not much to counter massive, hysterical propaganda about defenceless peacefull city.
And then I spotted something interesting:
http://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/Generalleutnant%20Erich%20Denecke.htm
Please look at year 1908. Erich Denecke spent some time in: Königliche Munitions Fabrik, Dresden Royal Munitions Factory (Government Facility), Dresden, Germany.
Looks like Dresden not only had military industry, but military industry with long tradition…
To confirm this fact I get and idea to get help from people purely apolitical but meticulous - militaria collectors…
http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes_bottom.htm
GERMAN ORDNANCE CODES
"After World War I, Germany was totally disarmed. When Hitler became Reich Chancellor in 1933, he began an era of re-armament. This had to be done in secrecy, and to conceal what was going on in the German arms and allied industries, manufacturers were assigned code letters or numbers. This ordnance coding began in 1938, continued to the last days of the Third Reich.
Early during WW II, Allied intelligence sources discovered the code, and despite concerted efforts, were unable to break the code. Even after the war when tons of documents were unearthed, the entire list of codes was not found, and thus some of the codes are still unknown.
Manufacturers and sub-contractors were assigned codes, and this coding included not only arms, ammunition, but also binoculars and even saddlebags. In short, anything that the quartermaster of any of the military services required, was coded. There were a few exceptions, but arms collectors are not concerned too much with those exceptions since most of them were marked with the name of the maker."
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/wwiiarms.html
http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/codes_full_alpha_a-b.html
Just brief search yielded some tangible results:
Radio H. Mende u. Co., Dresden
Oskar Krieger GmbH, Dresden
Guettler & Comp., Maschinenfabrik, Brieg Bez. Dresden
Kelle u. Hildebrandt GmbH, Niedersedlitz Bezirk Dresden
Vogel u. Schlegel GmbH, Dresden
Aktiengesellschaft fuer Cartonnagenindustrie, Dresden
Dresdner Koffer- u. Taschenfabrik, Karl Heinichen, Dresden
Königlich Sächsisch Arsenal, Dresden.
Still I needed more to know what was produced for Wehrmacht in Dresden.
And look at this:
The best result of translation I achieved by copying title Arsenal und Artilleriewerkstätten
pasting it in Google and clicking “translate this page”.
Bingo!
Post was too long - see next post.
“With seizure of power of the Nazis that changed, particularly by again taken up arms production. After dissolution of the tenant company Albert city 1933 the responsible Ministries tried to use the area gradually again strengthened militarily. First one was however bound to the existing leases and also in the economic achievement of the residents companies interested. As new users of the area drew in 1935 a SA engine tower relay and the police force. 1936 established the NSDAP Ortsgruppe Albert city a shooting range in the Priessnitzgrund. One year before had been already taken over the administration of the area by the army location administration Dresden. Authority disputes between the different authorities retarded a complete integration into the armed forces however until 1941. After the former administrative company had been dissolved, the entire industrial estate was subordinate to the military administration starting from 1941 again.”
Circle workshops for heavydamaged GmbH
the earlier military area referred in April 1919 as the first enterprise. The company busy above all disabled veterans in small crafts enterprises and printering. The existing technology was taken over by ehem. the artillery workshops.
Ernemann AG
1919 in three buildings furnished a branch, until 1925 existed (production of optical devices)
Essenzen and paint factory Louis Naumann AG
important supplier of the army (tinning factory Dresden Plauen) was already converted and to the production from lacquers and colors changed over, 1923 into an AG before the First World War.
Main workshop that
KVG Saxonia
since 1919 Kraftverkehrsunternehmen of the Free State Saxonia, start-up of the workshop on 1 April 1920
Saxonian engine works pre-mounts Richard Hartmann AG
1920 to 1928 largest tenant of the industrial estate with approx. 3,500 persons employed, among them many ehem. arms workers. The former production areas were taken over after 1928 of the ACI and the Günther works.
Saxonian acetylene plants AG
since November 1922 in the industrial estate resident
H. Mende & CO. OHG (radio Mende)
1923 created factory for the production of electrical apparatuses. Emphasis was the manufacturing of radios. Radio Mende belonged later to the most important arms enterprises of the industrial estate (radios, electrical fuzes) and was closely connected with the LV regime.
AG for Cartonnagen industry
among other things the administration building used Königsbrücker road and starting from center 1928 forgingresounds ehem. the projectile press work. Later into the armaments industry included (production of projectile cases)
Turbine factory
Brückner & CO.
1924 turbine factory emperor took over the bankruptcies, until end of war extended several times
Klauber & Simon (Infesto work)
starting from 1925 resident, manufacturer of piston rings, the enterprise exists until today (Federal Mogul AG)
Günther works,
NL Dresden
starting from 1928 Dresdens address of the Auerbacher of Günther works (Cement shutter factory)
Large printering
Johannes Pässler
1928 gone into bankruptcy
Schmalzeder inheriting
Branch of the pulling and punching work Dresden Reick (Metalldrückerei)
Gawadi enclosure GmbH
Production of protective clothing
Glasses body works, work III
Production of autobodies
Vasanta engine works AG
1945 to 80% dismantled, 1946 as “enterprise of interest of war” seize, starting from 1947 in the national possession
Infesto work
1945 to 70% dismantled, 1946 seize and as VEB resumed, 1990 denationalized (Federal Mogul Dresden GmbH - production of piston rings)
Gear factory
Kurt Münnich
1945 completely dismantle
Wayss & Freytag AG
1945 to the majority dismantle, 1946 expropriated (building contractors)
Elsner engine works
1945 to 40% dismantled, 1946 expropriated and in national possession transfer
Turbine factory
Brückner & CO.
1945 completely dismantled, 1946 seized, parts of the enterprise (test field plant) remained under military administration of the SMAD, late VEB building of fluid-flow machines
Radio Mende & CO.
1945 completely dismantled, 1946 in government property transfer (VEB radio work Dresden), today sample stage
Celluloidfabrik
Continental AG
1945 completely dismantle
Daimler Benz AG,
NL Dresden
1946 expropriated, despite protest of the parent company in national possession transfers
AG for Cartonnagen industry
, 1947 expropriate 1946 converted to the VEB
Industry gas AG (acetylene plant)
1946 expropriates
I’m waiting for your comments Chevan, Sneaksie and Sturmfurer…
I’m holding my breath.
Cheers,
Lancer44
Very very nice work indeed Lancer, if only I had your time and patience.
This evidence can only prove that using the arguments of Chevan and Sneaksie Dresden was indeed a legitimate target just as was Berlin etc.
I think it may be about time to put this Thread to bed.
Good work Lancer, really.
My respect.
OK, Let us allow some objects in Dresden were used for the military aims (although there are no proofs whatever except “British sources”).
Then why practically all industrial objects proved to be out of the zone of bombing?
This is what Germans, think in regard to this
http://www.rg-rb.de/2003/33/bombwar.shtml
Dresden burnt three days. 80% of its living-space fund were destroyed. 350 000 people proved to be without the roof overhead. The number of irreplaceable cultural losses includes ancient To frauyenkirkhe, To gofkirkhe, famous opera and world famous architectural- palace ensemble Of tsvinger. In this case not one industrial or military target in Dresden suffered - including the railroad junction, which was being been, according to official data, the central objective of impact.
By any who studies the bombing of Dresden they come to the conclusion that the industrial objects of Dresden they suffered to the negligible degree in comparison with the densely populated center of the city. Railroad station (main aim of the attack!!!) next day it was already restored.
In the Germany no one believes that the destruction of Dresden was justified by the military necessity.
This attack was directed against the citizen. City was located out of the zone of military operations, in it not there were transport or industrial objects of any kind, which have military value. Attack was senseless even from a psychological point of view. It killed both the enemies and supporters of the Nazi regime, which immediately began to systematically use scale of victims in Dresden for its propagandistic purposes
…periodical “Spiegel” in 1982 wrote: On the measures of Nuremberg process Churchill had to be hung, as the minimum for the bombardment of Dresden…
So, why such " war objects in Dresden" (as you write) do not burn into the zone of the bombing?
Answer to this I think it is contained in the book of Artur (bomber) Harris “Strategic bombings” (London. 1947):
It left as long ago as 1947 and was radiated by sufficiently large-quantity printing. Many it was interestingly, as it will be justified “chief bombardier”. The author of this did not begin to make. On the contrary, he clearly gave to understand that he will not make it possible to fall down entire responsibility to himself. It neither what regretted nor nor about which felt sorry. This is how he understood its primary task at the post of the commander of bombardment aviation:
"the basic objects of defense industry was to be searched for, where they occur in any country of peace, i.e., in cities themselves. One should especially emphasize that besides as in Essen we never made with the object of attack any specific plant. The destroyed enterprise in the city we always considered as additional success. The center of city always remained our main purpose. All old German cities are most densely build ot to to center, and the outskirts of them always more or are less free from the buildings. Therefore center section it is municipal is especially sensitive to the incendiary bombs ".
Thus “chief bombardier” it frankly acknowledged that for HIM THEY A LITTLE INTERESTED INDUSTRIAL OBJECTS in THE GERMAN CITIES. Tit is possible unambiguously to conclude that the central objective of Harris were German inhabitants. Consequently the tactics of the application of British aviation in Dresden WAS THE TYPICAL MILITARY CRIME. (Can this those STANDARDS about which spoke Firefly?)
I see , Lancer , you found convenient “argument” for the opponents. “Hysterical propoganda” .
Well , it means the stories of many witnesses about the nightmare in Dresden - these are “hysterical propoganda”, and tens of historians from the different countries are studied the bombing of Dresden, which came to unpleasant for you conclusions - “they just biased historians - like Irving”.
Nice point.
I think that Polish communism during the Cold War left too deep ideological track in your head.
P.S. And specially for you :
THE USSR never requested Anglo-American allies during World War II to bomb Dresden. About this testify the declassified minutes of the meeting of the past 4-11 February of 1945 Yalta conference, demonstrated in the documentary film "Dresden. Chronicle of tragedy " on canal RTR.
…Each , 13 February on entire East and central Germany into 22.10 into the memory about the victims of Dresden church bells rang. Chime continued 20 minutes - exactly so many, the first attack on the city how much lasted.
"to the vexation of American authorities this tradition was extended also in West Germany. Attempting to stop similar actions, on 11 February, 1953, U.S. State Department declared, that the bombardment of Dresden allegedly was undertaken in response to the persistent requests of Soviet side in the course of Yalta conference. It is interesting that these assertions began to again appear in the newest European films about the Dresden tragedy ", notes the author and the director of film. Today, according to him, it is possible to already documentary refute this myth of the times of the “Cold War”. Denisov (director of film) demonstrated minutes of the meeting of the Yalta conference, which no one saw to the present day and which were declassified specially for the film. "precisely at these sessions were discussed questions of the coordination of actions of allies in the final stage of war. Dresden city is mentioned only one time - and that in connection with drawing of the boundary between the Anglo-American and Soviet troops, it emphasizes Denisov. - A about which actually here requested Soviet command, so this about inflicting of impacts on the railroad junctions of Berlin and Leipzig in connection with the fact that the Germans already moved against us from western front on the order of 20 divisions and were collected to move about 30 more. Specifically, this request was entrusted in the written form to Roosevelt and to Churchill ".
http://www.rian.ru/society/histori/20060509/47881841.html
And gift for you dear Chevan:
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25954
I really recommend viewing short video from this site “Helsinki aflame”.
“According to Finnish estimates the Russians dropped almost 100,000 bombs in various parts of Finland during the Winter War of 1939-40. Russian warplanes bombed 690 cities and other localities away from the front lines. Close to 900 people, mostly civilians, were killed in these bombardments and 1,850 were seriously injured. Among the cities that suffered the most extensive damage were Viipuri, Lahti, Turku and Riihimäki.”
Photographs below are also from the same site: http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25937
Helsinki 30-th of November 1939.
So, our dear Russian friends which with such vigour condemned Allied bombing - please comment.
You really have a reason to condemn and compare Dresden to Auschwitz!
And perhaps you can tell me when Finns bombed Moscow?
Cheers,
Lancer44
Excelent lancer
There are non so blind that will not see.
Chevan where are you getting your quotes from as they are very porly written?
I think its the translator being used.
Lancer , you attempt to find any outside pretext in order to leave from the main theme of discussion (Dresden).
I wonderfully understand you , you do not have arguments any more for the justification for this military crime. But this is not your fault - there are no these arguments in nature.
You attempt to defend your point to the end . My respect.
But you use an incorrect method - constantly you attempt to pass on to OFF TOPIC theme.
You forget that this method it can be used against you, my friend.
OK. You began it.
…during the Winter War of 1939-40 …Close to 900 people, mostly civilians, were killed in these bombardments and 1,850 were seriously injured. Among the cities that suffered the most extensive damage were Viipuri, Lahti, Turku and Riihimäki
Mate , i dont’ defend stalins war policy , but your feeling of compassion to the civil astonishes me.
“…900 were …killed and 1850 injured” for some months of bombardments in 1939-40. What “terrible” victims carried finns in the WW2.
In Dresden, my friend, were burnt alive by 25 000 (according to reduced British data) IT IS ONLY FOR 14 HOUR .
In Hiroshima were instantly burnt about 20 000 and more 67 000 died of the burns during of the first month . The total quantity of victims of Hiroshima (in accordance with Japanese data) composed 250 000 (!!!).
In Hamburg (24 july -2 august 1943) were murdered at least 50 000 civils
Streets of Hamburg after the bombing.
Hamburg became the first victim of the Fire Storm, which thus was used to our “humane” allies for the destruction of the German and Japan population in 1943-45.
http://www.versii.com/telegraf/material.php?id=4711&nomer=278
…Against the inhabitants of Hamburg phosphoric bombs were used also. With their explosion of the particle of white phosphorus they stick perfectly still to the objects and they begin to burn, moreover this combustion cannot be put out: as soon as air enters to phosphorus, it flares up again.
Jozsef Dvorak ( chech author) in the book “Earth, people, catastrophe” so describes the action of these bombs on the people:
"unhappy, sprinkled by burning phosphorus, rushed into the channels, the rivers, into the waters of the water area of port, into the park fountains or were buried in the clay and expected the aid, by which no one could show them. Indeed as soon as to the parts of the bodies, on which fell sticky phosphorus, obtained air inlet, they flared up as torch. On the seventh day the police obtained the order of victims (which still remained in the living) to liquidate.
So, our dear Russian friends which with such vigour condemned Allied bombing - please comment.
You really have a reason to condemn and compare Dresden to Auschwitz!
So , dear Lancer ,total nubmer of civil germans victims of Fire Storm in 1943-45 was at least 500 000 peoples . And i think it can be compared with victims of Auschwitz.
On your remarkable photo evidently as happy smile at lady, that survived Soviet bombing.
Lancer, did you somewhere see smiles in the photographs of the victims of the bombings of Hiroshima or Dresden?
Why i don’t see the smiles? Do you know, mate?
Can You find although one photograph of the happy smiling themselves people which they survived Fiery Storm or bombardment with phosphorus.
NO , you can’t.
because spectacle of thousands of burnt bodies on the streets it is municipal they led them into the desperation and shock…
Ever heard of propaganda? I guess not, seeing as you believe all of it unquestioningly if it comes from the Soviets…
Do you laugh, MoS ?
Dresden and Hiroshima - Soviet propaganda!!!
…Each , 13 February on entire East and central Germany into 22.10 into the memory about the victims of Dresden church bells rang. Chime continued 20 minutes - exactly so many, the first attack on the city how much lasted.
Travel into Dresden on 13 February and say to Germans that THIS SOVIET PROPOGANDA. I will not be confident for your safety.
Chevan, I’m not questioning number of victims. I also don’t think it is OFF TOPIC.
We already proved that Dresden was legitimate military target.
What I want to question is moral legitimacy to stamp Allied bombings, (Dresden and others) as war crime.
Bombing of Helsinki played down by you, if weighed not by number of victims but morals, is no different to any bombing of towns and cities inhabited by civilians.
But Helsinki bombing was “good bombing”. Only few victims, who cares…
Dresden bombing was “bad bombing” because so many people died and bloody Allies had enough bombers to create such havoc.
What was soviet bombing of Berlin? It was an act of desperation and “good bombing” - Krasnaya Aviaciya had only few startegic bombers so they could not do much damage anyway.
Allied bombing en masse was a war crime.
May I ask you what soviet bombers were dropping? Duna’s, pillows?
Or maybe pieces of wood? Taking care not to hurt any innocent civilians on the ground?
If you go to Africa and ask tribal man what is bad, he will tell you:
- It’s bad when someone steal my cow.
So ask him what is good and with the same innocent sureness he will tell you: - It’s good when I steal someones cow.
Now you understand what I call tribal mentality?
And I’m questioning moral legitimacy of condemning Allies and white washing soviets. You may call it off topic if you want.
MODS may decide.
Lancer44
Chevan, in order to understand something sometimes you must put it in to context. This is what Lancer was attempting to do. It has been explained to you the similarities and differences of various bombing raids by different sides.
Just because people disagree with them there is no need to have a sulk.
I personally see nothing wrong with the Dresden bombing when put alongside such other attacks as Coventry, the London Blitz or the Nuclear bombs on Japan.
Whether anyone agrees or disagrees why flog the topic and thrash the same dialogue endlessly. Ain’t 18 pages enough?