Dresden - War Crime or Justified?

[Chevan]

@Lancer44

Chevan, I did not even mentioned Breslau this time…
BM-13 Katyusha is an area saturation weapon. It was virtually impossible to aim it at fortified positions. Katyushas en masse are as deadly in urban areas as carpet bombing.

You nothing know about tactic of appication BM-13, mate.
Units of BM-13 used befor, after and instead of artillery attack becouse it was effective massed area saturation weapon. Therefore the BM-13 acted agaist germans fortified line befor each offensive of Red Army in 1945.
It had great psihological effect on german soldiers. After using of Kathusha many german soldiers had a shok , and it was unable more to resist.
It also used in cities against germans “fire points”.
But Katyusha was never be used AS INSTRUMENT OF CITIZEN TERROR OF GERMANS.

Their usage in Berlin resulted in 152,000 German civilians dead.

Mate, are kidding? How can you to separate the figure of 152,000 victims of Katyusha in Berlin?
I suspect The figer of 152 000 was the total number of citizen victim in Berlin.

Dani , if you please, can you find information about population of Berlin in april 1945 and about number of victims ?

What the difference it makes for civilian person to be killed by incendiary dropped from B-29 than incendiary rocket from Katyusha?

THE DIFFERENCE WAS THE FIRE STORM, dear frend.
Peoples can not saved from fire even in air-raid shelter. See my posts above, please.

You’ll learn about soviet bombing raids on “defenceless cities”. They achieved smaller results just for the simple reason that they had not enough strategic bombers.

soviet bombing raids on rear of germany had episodic character, mainly for psihological aims. Not becouse Red army had not enought strategic bombers (the USSR could did it much in 1941-1945 . Instead of 40 000 Il-2 it was possibility to made about 10 000 far bombers TB-3) . Soviet doctrine considered Il-2 as more needed tactical aircraft.

Chevan, you just compared bombing of Dresden with Holocaust of Jews in extermination camps, am I right?

I just want to show you some evident things. Conclusions make youself.
The “bombing of Dresden” and “Holocaust of Jews” have a simular reason - THE HATE. And of course it had a simular the resault.
If in Aushwits almost during four months were murdered 400 000 hungarian jews , In Dresden were burn at least 100 000 just for 14 hours (!!!). As it told , feel the difference, Lancer.

Your aim in this thread is to proof that …" in the supreme political government and military command of England and USA were some peoples not better than the leaders of the Nazis…" This is your aim.

I said you , may aim is TRUE. The TRUE can have unpleasant consequences.
I read mostly the work of western historians, and sometimes i learn terrible things.

I think it is not a bad idea. But I would like to hear opinion of any American veteran about nukes dropped on Japan.
Not laptop humanists but veterans which soaked in blood, shit and sweat on Okinawa. Do you agree?

Agree in what? Not anerecan veterans taked the dessision about nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. It was US government. And i am sure it was POLITICAL DESICION. By this evil action ,Yankee “passed the hot regards for comrade Stalin”.
Open new thread, Lancer.

[Chevan]

@Firefly

…It can also be argued - what is a civilian when your nation is involved in Total War?

When civilians are making ammunition and Tanks and guns arent they supporting the war effort? Doesnt that make them a target?

It’s criminal logic , dear Firefly. If german women work on factory, is it mean she “legitime target”. Or if it’s slave from eastern europe in Krupp’s plan - is it “target”.
According this logic we could come to conclusions that all peoples on German territiry was “Legitime targed” (Even german children are simple the little fascists)
Strategic bombers not select the target , it kill everybody under carpet of bombs.

[Lancer44]

@Chevan

It’s criminal logic , dear Firefly. If german women work on factory, is it mean she “legitime target”. Or if it’s slave from eastern europe in Krupp’s plan - is it “target”.
According this logic we could come to conclusions that all peoples on German territiry was “Legitime targed” (Even german children are simple the little fascists)
Strategic bombers not select the target , it kill everybody under carpet of bombs.

Who started this criminal logic in 1939? and for England 1940?
Germans.
They devised tactic that bombing the poorest quarters of London inhabited by factory workers will cripple Britains war industry.
You may brand “Bomber Harris” a war criminal if you want, but him and his pilots remembered well indiscriminate bombing of Luftwaffe in 1940 and in 1944 and 45 they were very impressed with recent V-1 and V-2 bombings.
Don’t make mistake of taking one event out of context and transfering todays mentality and technological possibilities into WWII time.

As I said Chevan, you have an agenda and you pursue it relentlessly - “Americans and British were war criminals, killed as many civilians as germans Jews and did it in shorter time. So batko Stalin was just quiet, good fellow.”

lol

Thread and poll about nukes started.

Cheers,

Lancer44

[Chevan]

@Lancer44

Who started this criminal logic in 1939? and for England 1940?
Germans.
They devised tactic that bombing the poorest quarters of London inhabited by factory workers will cripple Britains war industry.

So, now you see Lancer, “Bomber Harris” was the worthy student of Herman Hering. And as outstanding student, “Bomber Harris” exceeded its teacher.

[Firefly]

@Chevan

It’s criminal logic , dear Firefly. If german women work on factory, is it mean she “legitime target”. Or if it’s slave from eastern europe in Krupp’s plan - is it “target”.
According this logic we could come to conclusions that all peoples on German territiry was “Legitime targed” (Even german children are simple the little fascists)
Strategic bombers not select the target , it kill everybody under carpet of bombs.

The Soviets also bombed Berlin

http://zhukov.mitsi.com/sovietbombers.htm

Was this their first War crime in WW2?

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

This work (“slaughter house is number five or a crusade of children”) Vonnegut NOT FANTASY, these are its memoirs.
But than Bergander is more serious than D.Irving? Your facts?

“Slaughter House Five” is indeed a work of fiction, but one that is based on reality. It is considered a post-modern work of science fiction, but indeed Kurt Vonnegut was a U.S. Army soldier that was captured during the Battle of the Bulge, and he did indeed base part of SH5 on his experiences cleaning up the shattered city of Dresden. The book, like “Catch-22,” is a cynical, absurdest anti-war novel, and not necessarily a critique limited to the Allied fire-bombing of Dresden. And, it should be noted that I recall a scene in which Billy Pilgrim recalls a U.S. soldier being tried and executed by the Gestapo for “stealing” a tea-pot from the rubble, in a city that has been obliterated with much of its population killed. But I believe I’ve read where Vonnegut has recalled how it has scarred him, it’s a matter of point-of-view I guess…

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

Dear prf27, certainly war brings terrible sufferings to all. And both sides are forced to accomplish the severe actions, which not always can be justified by military necessity. Problem in the fact that conquerors sometimes acted more amoral than conquered in ww2.

I’m not particularly proud of the RAF & USAAF firebombing of Dresden, but your final statement seems to contain a great deal of hyperbole. Dresden, even the worst accounts of it, pale in comparison to the Holocaust and the Rape of Manchuria… And, to some extent, the allies may have rationalized the killing as hastening the end to the War by demoralizing Germany, and thus saving lives in the end. I’m not saying I agree with that belief, but we’re talking about the tale end of the most brutal conflict in human history. The British and American bomber generals were certainly steeled by this towards the end…

My belief is that Dresden was neither a legitimate, purely military action, not was it just a sadistically barbaric war crime. The truth lies somewhere in the middle in a big repulsive shade of gray…

*edited to illustrate a point.

[Nickdfresh]

@SS_Tiger

He is saying that the allies killed nearly as many innocent people as the Germans did, therefor if the German killing of innocents are warcrimes then the allied bombings of innocent people should be warcrimes. He is pointing out a double standard, which I agree with.

Lancer I may have missed something, but I don’t see Stalin metioned in a way that says he didn’t or did have gas chambers etc?

I agree there is definitely a double standard…

But there is no way in hell that the Allies inflicted more than a fraction of the civilian casualties perpetrated by the Axis, which incidentally, started WWII…

[i]“You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will.
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.”

Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman
Letter to Mayor Calhoun of Atlanta and others
September 12, 1864 [/i]

[Chevan]

@Firefly

The Soviets also bombed Berlin

http://zhukov.mitsi.com/sovietbombers.htm

Was this their first War crime in WW2?

I appreciated your humor , Firefly.
14 soviet Pe-8 (only 11 reached the Berlin) bombed well defend by AA guns city. Just 6 of bombers back to the base.
was it war crime? Are you kidding?
IT WAS GESTURE of DESPAIR.

…Although given a high priority, the Soviet raids were never intended to have carry the same weight as the RAF, RCAF and USAAF raids in the west.They were performed merely to pay the Germans back for their equally ineffective attacks on Moscow and provide a much needed boost to morale on the home front. It is kind of ironic that while the bombing of Germany’s capital was left mainly to the airmen operating from southern England, it was the humble Soviet infantryman that dealt the city’s final death blow, capturing it block by bloodily contested block

Dresden bombed 1200 “Lankasters” and 2200 B-17. In three stages during 14 Hours. Cynically and cruelly, using napalm.
Dresden was absolutly defenless (no AA guns, no german fighters in the sky).

Firefly, please don’t repeat mistakes of Lancer.

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

I’m not particularly proud of the RAF & USAAF firebombing of Dresden, but your final statement seems to contain a great deal of hyperbole. Dresden, even the worst accounts of it, pale in comparison to the Holocaust and the Rape of Manchuria… And, to some extent, the allies may have rationalized the killing as hastening the end to the War by demoralizing Germany, and thus saving lives in the end. I’m not saying I agree with that belief, but we’re talking about the tale end of the most brutal conflict in human history. The British and American bomber generals were certainly steeled by this towards the end…

My belief is that Dresden was neither a legitimate, purely military action, not was it just a sadistically barbaric war crime. The truth lies somewhere in the middle in a big repulsive shade of gray…

*edited to illustrate a point.

Hi Nickdfresh.
i adgee with you that “The truth lies somewhere in the middle in a big repulsive shade of gray…” . Somewhere between Goebbels propoganda (250 000 killed in Dresden) and official version/propoganda of Allies (25 000 killed and 35 000 wounded). But character and tactic of this cruel action of terror had many evidences. Not just Kurt Wonnegut . Please see my post above(since page 13).
The reason of This action of allies was HATE. Not millitary necessity.
The reason of Holocost was the HATE too. Maybe it had some different scale of violence , but in common case it had simular amoral the result.

[Lancer44]

@Chevan

The reason of This action of allies was HATE. Not millitary necessity.
The reason of Holocost was the HATE too. Maybe it had some different scale of violence , but in common case it had simular amoral the result.

KILL

By Ilya Ehrenburg

(translated by “Chris Doss” )

Originally published by the military publishing house
Voenizdat June 24, 1942 a year after Germany
invaded the Soviet Union in World War II.

“Here are excerpts from three letters taken from dead
Germans:
Commander Reinhardt writes to Lieutenant Otto von
Shirach:
“They have taken the Frenchmen from our work camp. I
selected six Russians from the Minsk region. They can
endure much more than Frenchmen. Only one has died,
and the rest continue to work in the field and on the
farm. It costs nothing to maintain them, and we need
not suffer, because they are animals, not people,
whose children may be killing our soldiers or eating
German bread. Yesterday I executed two Russian rogues
who had been secretly devouring milk that had been
destined for pigs…”
Matheus Zimlich writes to his brother Heinrich
Zimlich:
“In Leiden we have a camp for Russians, and you can
see them there. They are not afraid of weapons, but we
talk to them with a good whip…”
A certain Otto Essman writes to Lieutenant Helmud
Weigand:
“We have Russian prisoners. These guys eat worms that
have come up after a rain on the square of the
aerodrome; they throw them into a slop-pail. I have
seen them eat weeds. To think that these are –
people!”
These are slave masters, who want to make our people
into slaves. They take Russians, mock them, and drive
them insane with hunger to the point where, dying,
they eat grass and worms, and a filthy German with a
rotten cigar in his lips philosophizes: “Are these
really people?”
We know everything. We remember everything. We
understand: Germans are not people. From now on, the
word “German” is for us the worst of curses. From now
on, the word “German” causes rifles to fire. We are
not going to talk. We are not going to be awed. We are
going to kill. If you have not killed a German today,
your day has been wasted. If you think that your
neighbor will kill a German instead of you, you have
not understood the threat. He will take your loved
ones and torture them in his accursed Germany. If you
cannot kill a German with bullets, kill him with your
bayonet. If there is a lull in fighting, if you are
waiting for a battle, kill a German before the battle.
If you leave a German alive, he will hang a Russian
man or degrade a German woman. If you have already
killed one German, go kill another – there is nothing
more festive for us than German corpses. Don’t count
the days. Don’t count the versts. Count just one
thing: how many Germans you have killed. Your aged
mother asks, “Kill a German!” Your grandfather prays,
“Kill a German!” Your native earth cries, “Kill a
German!” Don’t miss. Don’t let pass. Kill!”

Hi Chevan,

Sounds familiar?
Or you have a national short memory disease?

Cheers,

Lancer44

[Firefly]

@Chevan

I appreciated your humor , Firefly.
14 soviet Pe-8 (only 11 reached the Berlin) bombed well defend by AA guns city. Just 6 of bombers back to the base.
was it war crime? Are you kidding?
IT WAS GESTURE of DESPAIR.

Dresden bombed 1200 “Lankasters” and 2200 B-17. In three stages during 14 Hours. Cynically and cruelly, using napalm.
Dresden was absolutly defenless (no AA guns, no german fighters in the sky).

Firefly, please don’t repeat mistakes of Lancer.

Ah, so I understand what you mean. The Soviet Union can bomb in a gesture of despair but the Western Allies had to be committing War Crimes.

Surely, using your logic, even 1 bomb dropped at random on Berlin is a War Crime?

Your logic being that if an act deliberetly targets any civillians its a war crime?

[Chevan]

@Firefly

Surely, [b]using your logic[b], even 1 bomb dropped at random on Berlin is a War Crime?

Your logic being that if an act deliberetly targets any civillians its a war crime?

My logic ? Mate, you something to confuse.
I never mean that “1 bomb dropped at random on Berlin is a War Crime”. Not need to be absurd.
It’s tragedy, fortuity.
But CONSCIOUS DESTRUCTION OF POPULATION OF DEFENLESS CITIES (like Dresden was) using napalm bombs is the real War Crime.
Becouse … see above.
This is my logic.

[Chevan]

@Lancer44

KILL

By Ilya Ehrenburg

(translated by “Chris Doss” )

Originally published by the military publishing house
Voenizdat June 24, 1942 a year after Germany
invaded the Soviet Union in World War II.

“Here are excerpts from three letters taken from dead
Germans:
Commander Reinhardt writes to Lieutenant Otto von
Shirach:
“They have taken the Frenchmen from our work camp. I
selected six Russians from the Minsk region. They can
endure much more than Frenchmen. Only one has died,
and the rest continue to work in the field and on the
farm. It costs nothing to maintain them, and we need
not suffer, because they are animals, not people,
whose children may be killing our soldiers or eating
German bread. Yesterday I executed two Russian rogues
who had been secretly devouring milk that had been
destined for pigs…”
Matheus Zimlich writes to his brother Heinrich
Zimlich:
“In Leiden we have a camp for Russians, and you can
see them there. They are not afraid of weapons, but we
talk to them with a good whip…”
A certain Otto Essman writes to Lieutenant Helmud
Weigand:
“We have Russian prisoners. These guys eat worms that
have come up after a rain on the square of the
aerodrome; they throw them into a slop-pail. I have
seen them eat weeds. To think that these are –
people!”
These are slave masters, who want to make our people
into slaves. They take Russians, mock them, and drive
them insane with hunger to the point where, dying,
they eat grass and worms, and a filthy German with a
rotten cigar in his lips philosophizes: “Are these
really people?”
We know everything. We remember everything. We
understand: Germans are not people. From now on, the
word “German” is for us the worst of curses. From now
on, the word “German” causes rifles to fire. We are
not going to talk. We are not going to be awed. We are
going to kill. If you have not killed a German today,
your day has been wasted. If you think that your
neighbor will kill a German instead of you, you have
not understood the threat. He will take your loved
ones and torture them in his accursed Germany. If you
cannot kill a German with bullets, kill him with your
bayonet. If there is a lull in fighting, if you are
waiting for a battle, kill a German before the battle.
If you leave a German alive, he will hang a Russian
man or degrade a German woman. If you have already
killed one German, go kill another – there is nothing
more festive for us than German corpses. Don’t count
the days. Don’t count the versts. Count just one
thing: how many Germans you have killed. Your aged
mother asks, “Kill a German!” Your grandfather prays,
“Kill a German!” Your native earth cries, “Kill a
German!” Don’t miss. Don’t let pass. Kill!”

Hi Chevan,

Sounds familiar?
Or you have a national short memory disease?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Hi , Lancer .You already arose from the bed

Do You read the GREATEST SOVIET JEW from Literature Ilya Ehrenburg?
During ww2 he sparkled by his articles in the Soviet press.
Yes, he inspired the Hate to the Soviet soldiers. What do you can expect from the soviet jew in ww2. Maybe you would wish to hear from him about love to the germans?
I never support idea of cruel retribution , which Ehrenburg write about.
Of couse, among germans it was meeted the beast ( espesially in SS and military police). But not all were such.

Or you have a national short memory disease

It’s all OK with my memory, Lancer. Dont trouble , please.
And what “national short memory” do you mean , mate. I am not jew.

[Firefly]

Explain to me Chevan the diffrence then? At what point does the number of bombs and bombers make a War Crime. Not the Soviet 12 then?

Was the Nazi bombing of Stalingrad a War Crime? Also was it a crime for Stalin to forbid civilians to be evacuated from the city?

Was the Nazi bombing of London a War Crime?

[Sturmfuhrer]

@Firefly

Explain to me Chevan the diffrence then? At what point does the number of bombs and bombers make a War Crime. Not the Soviet 12 then?

Was the Nazi bombing of Stalingrad a War Crime? Also was it a crime for Stalin to forbid civilians to be evacuated from the city?

Was the Nazi bombing of London a War Crime?

Sorry, to interupt your conversation but cant stand it anymore. Komrad Firefly, if really dont understand, komrad Chevan is speaking not about the quantity of planes but about their aims. If bombers purpose is killing of the peaceful citizens there is no doubt- its a crime. So bombardment of Dresden or for example Leningrad or London with the purpose of killing peaceful citizens was the crime. When bombing some plant or fortified area (especially situated in cities) surely maybe some civil victims, but its hard to consider war crime (except some outgoing situations) cause the purpose is struggle with industry or military system of the enemy.
Your comparesant of 14 soviet bombers in august 1941 and thousands of allied bombers in february 1945 made laughing not only Chevan;)

[Chevan]

@Sturmfuhrer

Sorry, to interupt your conversation but cant stand it anymore. Komrad Firefly, if really dont understand, komrad Chevan is speaking not about the quantity of planes but about their aims. If bombers purpose is killing of the peaceful citizens there is no doubt- its a crime. So bombardment of Dresden or for example Leningrad or London with the purpose of killing peaceful citizens was the crime. When bombing some plant or fortified area (especially situated in cities) surely maybe some civil victims, but its hard to consider war crime (except some outgoing situations) cause the purpose is struggle with industry or military system of the enemy.
Your comparesant of 14 soviet bombers in august 1941 and thousands of allied bombers in february 1945 made laughing not only Chevan;)

My greatings , Sturmfuhrer.
I think you not quite correctly undestand the theme.
Berlin, London, Leningrad , Stalingrad were (althout it cynically sound) the legitime military target. The destruction of that cyties was cruel action (and millitary necessity) but not te War Criminal.
London was the capital of GB and place of British Hight Political and Millitary command was stationed here. Moreover there were many millitary objects in London area. London had powerfull anti-air defence (German losed half Luftwaffe bombers during the battle of London). Thus bombing of London (like the Berlin) cann’t be consider as war criminal , but just cruel war action.
In Dresden was quite another situatuon.

[Firefly]

I’m sorry Chevan, you cant pick and choose either the scale of what you consider a War crime or the type of bombing that is considered a War Crime.

Either all indiscriminate bombing is a War crime or none is.

The US Bombed Hanoi, was that a War Crime?

The Germans deliberately targetted non-industrial areas of London and Coventry, so why is it not a war crime?

Why didnt the Germans defend Dresden, according to the Logic you guys use, if they can defend something, it cant be a War Crime.

I think we are just going around in cricles here arguing about what the definition of a War Crime is.

In 1945 a Soviet submarine sank the unarmed German ship “Wilhelm Gustloff” in the Baltic, this ship was carrying 7000 civilians evacuating from East Prussia. Nearly all of them died in this deliberate indiscriminite attack.

Now, was this a war crime under your rules too?

[Chevan]

@Firefly

I think we are just going around in cricles here arguing about what the definition of a War Crime is.

We are really going around, Firefly. I think it’s becouse we discuss different hems in thread about Dresden.

Why didnt the Germans defend Dresden, according to the Logic you guys use, if they can defend something, it cant be a War Crime.

Mate , Dresden had no anti-air defence becouse there weren’t important millitary and strategic objects. Germans cann’t to imagine thet this calm provincial city could be attack by strategic aviation.

In 1945 a Soviet submarine sank the unarmed German ship “Wilhelm Gustloff” in the Baltic, this ship was carrying 7000 civilians evacuating from East Prussia. Nearly all of them died in this deliberate indiscriminite attack.

The destroing of german naval base “Wilhelm Gustloff” by submarine of captain Marinesky is another interesting them. If you wish to discuss it , open new thread.

[Firefly]

Dresden had an anti air defence. It was Germany’s anti air defence.

Anyway I think we shall agree to differ on this one as you will always refuse to believe that the bombing was justified and was a War Crime while I may believe that the bombing was maybe unecessary but was definately not a war crime.

By the standards of the day it was not.