Execution of civils in the East

I have read it.
It sais exactly what I say about applicability of Hague 1907 - the mentioned issue with Montenegro and Ottoman Empire.
See last paragraph on page 180 and remark 6 on page 181.

Regarding Geneva 1929 it is not to me clear enough what the author wanted to say - as he piculiarly only used exactly ONE sentense to cover the issue. Here is the sentnse (top of page 181): “The Geneva conventions of 1929 explicitly reversed this “si omnes” clause.”. And then in remark 7 the article 82 is quoted.

But the text of art.82 does not say that the provisions apply to the nonsignatories!!! I repeat it again. I understand that you disagree but you so far could not show me that the sentenses in art. 82 have different meaning.

And here are the page scans for every one to see. Click to enlarge. Size - app. 500KB each.

pages 179 and 180:

pages 181 and 182:

Again, I DO realise that “si omnes” was intentionaly removed from the article 82 of 1929 as compared to article 2 of 1907! And that “si omnes” did not apply after for the Convention 1929.

Excellent. One problem is than completely eliminated.:!:

But I see it that absence of “si omnes” in article 82 did not automaticaly give rights to the nonsignatories.

On the contrary, my dear Mr. Egorka – as a matter of fact that article 82 automatically gave rights to the non-signatories! This single coursed point actually represents the only problematic issue in this whole issue here.

Obligations arising under the Geneva Convention were not limited only to contractors – they held universal character of the condemnation and prevention of mistreatment, as well as the duty of international cooperation required in order to liberate humankind from such an odious scourge. The very essence of the treaty is that the human dignity of all individuals must be respected at all times, and that everything possible must be done, without any kind of discrimination, to reduce the suffering of people in captivity.

Because of this universality, the rights and duties enshrined by the Convention were actually unilaterally expanded by the obligation Erga Omnes expressed with the article 82. Unilateral contractual statement Erga Omnes, however, has to be regarded as binding upon the signatory state because it imposes an obligation not to go back on its legally accepted undertakings. Being an Erga Omnes obligation, article 82 could not be contractually limited only to the Convention participants due to the legal doctrine Res inter alios acta, aliis nec nocet nec prodest. Therefore text of the Article 82 automatically gave rights to the non-signatories as well.

Can we first settle the issue from the “Treaty law” pont of view???

Just settled! :smiley:

With all due respect, “si omnes” does not mean what you wrote here.
The art.2 of 1907 is clear about it - in case at least one of the beligerents was a nonsignatory the provisions did apply at all. Not just between the signatories, but AT ALL.

When someone is in a hurry, he obviously will be prone to minor mistakes. Correct sentence has to be: “The Hague Convention applied only to the states in conflict being parties to the previously mentioned legal instrument.” But, after all, there is obvious absence of the word “not” in your sentence as well, my dear Mr. Egorka.

So we approach, IMHO, the core issue - both “Treaty law” and “Customary law” are equaly the part of the internation law.

Absolutely correct statement which never was previously disputed by me.

But it is applicability as between the Convention participants. NOT the participants in the conflict.

Res inter alios acta, aliis nec nocet nec prodest. :smiley:

I am not stating that German official position itself created or modified the general international law.

Thank you very much for this highly important clarification. It is accepted with gratitude.

I understand that you disagree but you so far could not show me that the sentenses in art. 82 have different meaning.

I see, my dear Mr. Egorka. So actually my obligation from now on will be only a direct presentation of the independent and unambiguously confirmed professional legal opinion, presentable in a completely visible form of a quotation for every claim in every line of my post? OK. I shall try. In the meantime, may I ask you for a personal favor? Please present to me some officially corroborated and professionally supported legal opinions connected with your personal stance in this issue? Thank you in advance. :slight_smile:

Res inter alios acta, aliis nec nocet nec prodest

Ok… Maybe I starting to grab the core of it…
So… You mean that when Geneva convention including art.82 was signed in 1929 all the signatories were aware that they do it under stipulations of “Erga Omnes” and NOT under stipulations of “Res inter alios acta, aliis nec nocet nec prodest”??? Right?
So from very begining of the GEneva 1929 that was the common understanding of article 82 among the signatories to view it through “Erga Omnes”? And that later on, Gemany solely distorted it and singlehandadly decided to depart from “Erga Omnes” towards “Res inter alios acta…”?

When someone is in a hurry, he obviously will be prone to minor mistakes. Correct sentence has to be: “The Hague Convention applied only to the states in conflict being parties to the previously mentioned legal instrument.” But, after all, there is obvious absence of the word “not” in your sentence as well, my dear Mr. Egorka.

Right, there is not word “NO” in art.82.
F.ex. if you and I sign a treaty, we would not nessesary had to mention that it does not apply to Mr.Mickey Mouse. since we are the one signing - we are the ones mentioned in the treaty.
As you mentioned self: Res inter alios acta, aliis nec nocet nec prodest

Please present to me some officially corroborated and professionally supported legal opinions connected with your personal stance in this issue? Thank you in advance. :slight_smile:

Fair enough! Mind that I am not a lawyer and I might treat the discussed issues not in a strict way.
I will show you what, appart from my own weak thinking, makes me still wonder - the quotes from some respectable books and web sites. Maybe I just simply misunderstand them.

I will try to assemble tonight a set of quotes from the sources that I have.

I do not have much except the previously quoted Mr.Keitel.

:wink:

Well that is what I have at hand right away:
[ol]
[li]ICRC website, Comments on Convention (III) relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.[/li]http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/COM/375-590005?OpenDocument
There was no discussion, at the 1949 Diplomatic Conference, on the Committee’s proposal (which did not include the second sentence of paragraph 3); the experience of the Second World War had [p.21] convinced all concerned that it was necessary. But the draft text said nothing about the relations between a belligerent, or belligerents, bound by the Conventions on the one hand, and a belligerent, or belligerents, not bound by it on the other hand. The ’ clausula si omnes ’ (4) which was included in the 1906 Geneva Convention – but which was never invoked during the First World War, although it might appropriately have been in the case of Montenegro – was omitted in 1929. But although the Convention was binding upon the Contracting States in their relations as between each other, they were still under no obligation in regard to States which were not parties to that instrument. The ideal solution would obviously have been that all the Parties to a conflict should be obliged to apply the Convention in all circumstances, i.e. even if the adversary was not a party to it, and despite the fact that the Convention would be a ’ res inter alios acta ’ for the latter.
There could be no question of reverting to the ’ clausula si omnes ', which had fortunately been abandoned in recent times, since it no longer corresponded to humanitarian needs. The 1929 Convention had already departed from it by stating in the second paragraph of Article 82 Database ‘IHL - Treaties & Comments’, View ‘1.Traités \1.2. Par Article’ that “in time of war, if one of the belligerents is not a party to the Convention, its provisions shall, nevertheless, remain binding as between the belligerents who are parties thereto”. Thus the provisions concerning prisoners of war were given the binding force of which they had been deprived by the solutions adopted at the Peace Conferences. The fact that one of the belligerents was not a party to the Convention could no longer nullify its applicability.
Although from the legal point of view there was no way to extend the scope of the Convention, it was necessary to find one on the humanitarian plane. The Committee accordingly suggested to the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference of 1949 that the following two sentences be added to Article 2 Database ‘IHL - Treaties & Comments’, View ‘1.Traités \1.2. Par Article’:
“In the event of an international conflict between one of the High Contracting Parties and a Power which is not bound by the present Convention, the Contracting Party shall apply the provisions thereof. This obligation shall stand unless, after a reasonable lapse of time, the Power not bound by the present Convention states its refusal to apply it, or in fact fails to apply it.” (5)

[li]ICRC website, Answer on the question “What is customary international law?”[/li]http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/customary-law-q-and-a-150805
Both treaty law and customary international law are sources of international law. Treaties, such as the four Geneva Conventions of 1949, are written conventions in which States formally establish certain rules. Treaties bind only those States which have expressed their consent to be bound by them, usually through ratification.

[li]Nurenberg trial papers: TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT GENERAL DEFENSE DEFENSE EXHIBIT 79 SUPPLEMENT TO EXPERT LEGAL OPINION BY PROFESSOR REINHART MAURACH* [UNIVERSITY OF MUNICH), SUBMITTED ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENSE IN CASE NO. 12).[/li]Page 52 of http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_war-criminals_Vol-XI.pdf
Herewith the expression “fuer” [for], implying an absolute sense. in the German translation is replaced by the relative expression “entre” in the authoritative French text, and by the corresponding expression “between” in the English translation. Here is the result of the purely reciprocal effect of the obligation. In the case of the participation of the U.S.S.R.• in hostilities from 1939-1945. the Geneva Convention was to be applicable in relations between the German Reich on the one hand and the Western Powers on the other, but not, however, between the German Reich and the U.S.S.R
THough here I have to make a remark that Prof.Maurch at the end arrives to the conclusion that the Geneva 1929 had to also apply to Soviet POW because USSR being a nonsignatory still applied corresponding to the Geneva 1929 Convention policies.
[/ol]
I think I have more… I need to look.

I realise that these are not the best source but they are not too bad either. It is not like I just rely on my own opinion.

Just found another one:

Nurenberg trial. “Hague and Geneva Convention”
page 534 of the document: http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_war-criminals_Vol-XI.pdf
It would appear from the above quotation that that Tribunal accepted ,asinternational law the statement of Admiral Canaris to the effect that the Geneva Convention was not binding as between Germany and Russia as a contractual agreement but that the general principles of international law as outlined in those conventions were applicable. In other words, it would appear that the IMT in the case above cited followed the same lines of thought with regard to the Geneva Convention as with respect to the Hague. Convention to the effect that they were binding insofar as they were in substance an expression of international law as accepted’ by the civilized nations of the world, and this Tribunal adopts this viewpoint.

Excellent presentation of the case, my dear Mr. Egorka! :smiley:

Of, course - you can count on my reply, but in this very moment I am unable to act in response because I am waiting… certain previously undigitalized documents from the Russian archives. However, with a little bit of luck, they will be in my possession very soon.

In the meantime, I do have an insignificant, but in the same time truly interesting legal precedent for you, the criminal case of Josias Erbprinz zu Waldeck-Pyrmont. It is located here:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauTrials/BuchenwaldTrial2A.html

You will see that my American colleagues actually stated that:

“…Under this charge, one of the main crimes was the shooting of Soviet Prisoners of War, which was a violation of the Geneva Convention. The prosecution was of the opinion that the defeated Germans should be held to the rules of the Convention with regard to Soviet POWs…”

Perhaps our American colleagues will be able to provide some additional papers about this truly intriguing case?

In the meantime, as always – all the best! :wink:

Nice to know that you are still out there and kicking! :slight_smile:

Right. But… maybe I am not remembering it correctly right now but intentional execution of POWs was defined as a crime already in the Hague 1907.
In fact, to make it clear, when I am asking if Germany actualy had to full fill the Geneva 1929 as beteween Russia I actually mean the smaller things like letters exchange, POWs camps visitations by Red Cross and other ones. All the gross crimes agains the POWs were already covered in Hague 1907, IIRC.

And again, this one is a tough one to refute, is it not?
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=142636&postcount=185

I’ve just heard something that German public prosecutor’s office of Pottsdam asked the general prosecutor’s office of Russian Federation for help in the investigation of the massacre of 1000 men in Treuenbrietzen near Pottsdam, comitted by the Soviets in April 1945.
Can anybody confirm that?
Wouldn’t that be the first investigation of Soviet war crime run by the German side?

Never heard anything like that.
I suppose this is a rumours or propogand.

It’s true. During the so-called “Second massacer of Treuenbietzen” 800-1000 inhabitants and refugees from east german regions were executed by the Red Army on April 23, 1945. And indeed the Office of Public Prosecutor in Potsdam addressed a request for information to the russian authorities.
I assume there will be more cases like this one in the future for the truth about different incidents comes to light slowly. During the GDR aera the official version was that the 800-1000 people were killed during a bombing raid, however there wasn’t one in that time and place.

I Love your way of thinking Chevan :slight_smile:
If you haven’t heard about something it simply means that the thing never occured.
Or at the most it is a rumour or propaganda. :smiley:

It reminds me some jokes from the communist era about so-called “Radio Erevan”.

Finally, my dear Mr. Egorka, I do have some spare time, so here are my answers to your questions. :slight_smile:

Right. But… maybe I am not remembering it correctly right now but intentional execution of POWs was defined as a crime already in the Hague 1907.

Yes, my dear Mr. Egorka – without any doubt it was defined as a crime. However, the more legally pertinent Convention in this specific case is the Geneva Convention of 1929, which containes no Si Omnes provision, requiring that all beligerents are parties to the Convention to make it of binding force.

In fact, to make it clear, when I am asking if Germany actualy had to full fill the Geneva 1929 as beteween Russia I actually mean the smaller things like letters exchange…

Well, my dear Mr. Egorka, I have to admit that I was absolutely concentrated upon executions, torturing, medical experiments on prisoners, etc. However, if we reconsider the established legal praxis that the lawful principle Stare decisis et quieta non movere is sufficent as the effective agent of legal pooling into a unified decision and a amalgamated Statement of Law (William O. Douglas: Stare Decisis, Columbia Law Review, XLIX . – 1949, p. 735), and that aforepresented decision of the US Military Tribunal at Dachau was additionaly confirmed by the absolute absence of the interlocutory appeal, we can declare that obligatory Erga Omnes nature of the Convention was judicially confirmed, thus providing deducible peremptory character of Ius Cogens to all chapters of the aforesaid Convention. :slight_smile:

However, factual non-existance of the bilateral agreements between previously mentioned belligerents concerning Protecting Powers charged with the protection of the interests of the belligerents in these specific issues, as well as the absence of detailed agreements between the German and Soviet governments prescribed by the Convention will be sufficient for the abolishment of the legal responsibility of the German government in these specific issues.

In the very same time it has to be mentioned that obligatory character of the Geneva Convention toward Soviet POWs was confirmed by the Supreme National Tribunal of Poland (Najwyższy Trybunał Narodowy) during the Auschwitz trial in Kraków (1947) as well. I am still waiting for the scans of the original papers connected with this question.

Members of the military garison of the concentration camp in Auschwitz standing before the Supreme National Tribunal in Cracow

As you know, the first major transport of Soviet prisoners of war came to the Auschwitz camp on the 7th of October, 1941. Other transports followed. In accordance with the amount of camp numberes issued to the prisoners, it was acertained that all togerther 13,775 prisoners of war had been brought to the camp (Jerzy Brandhuber: Soviet prisoners of war in the Auschwitz Concentration Camp. - Hefte von Auschwitz, Oświecim, 4, 1961, pp. 45 – 46).

During the period from October 1941 to the end of Fwebruary 1942, 8,320 prisoners of war had perished. The names of those murdered were entered into the book of deaths (Totenbuch), where cause and time of death were recorded. The most astonishing thing in those records is the fact that 653 Soviet POWs had officially died in succesive intervals of 5 minutes due to heart failure, which never was confirmed by a proffesional medical post mortem examination.

Also an attempt at mass killing of Soviet POW’s by gassing was made on September 3, 1941 by the order of the SS Hauptsturmführer Karl Fritsch, when 600 prisoners of war and 250 prisoners from the camp hospital had than perished. (Danuta Czech: Kalendarium der Ereignisse im Konzentrationslager Auschwitz-Birkenau.- Hefte von Auschwitz, Oświecim, 4, 1961, p. 109.).

Soviet prisoners of war were also shot in the Block of Death (Block 11), where they were shot in the back of the head. When the number of those victims was small, they were shot in the lavatory situated in a passage-way leading to the yard. The officers of the SS camp garrison took part in all executions.

Finally, I have another highly interesting legal precedent for you, my dear Mr Egorka. Do you remember that highly persuasive statement given by your legal expert, the right honorable Prof. dr. Reinhard Maurach?

Well, his shadowed acuity was somehow… extraordinarily familiar, therefore with a little help from my German friends I have checked a few things connected with his distinguished pesonality. And do you know what actually was the most astonishing thing in all that? The verity that your distinguished legal adviser, My dear Mr. Egorka, actually was a registered member of the NSDAP, prolific anti-Semitic writer, Nazi – appointed Admonisher of the District Court, and officially non-denazified professor of Law who openly stated that NS legal prescriptions against the Jews actually represented a for of a legal self-defense. :shock:

Here is a brief bio-biographical refference:

Professor Reinhart Maurach – professor of Law and fervent NS-Ideologist

Of course, complete translation of the aforesaid passage will be available if necessary.

And here is the source of information:

Of course, original scans of his highly intellectual anti-semitic articles published in the notorious “Weltkampf” will be available very soon as well.

Well, that’s all for today. In the meantime, as always – all the best. :wink:

I watched it through.
Yes, it was barbaric.
It also, seemed to me that that group (one might almost say “Einsatz Kommando”, (though I’d wish no insult to current day German forum members)), was very familiar with the methods they were using to obtain the information they were seeking.

I have known of worse, but not by a large degree.

If one was to allow the footage to do so, it would be very mentally disturbing.

I would NOT recommend those of a gentle nature to view what I just have.

Another saddening event in the long list of human inhumanity towards humans.

Regards, Uyraell.

Oh i did not really hear of it.
How it was happend?And what did Russian authorities answer?

Last info on this case I got is from late December 2008. It says that the Potsdam Prosecutors are still waiting for a response from Moscow which is supposed to tell about the involved Soviet units and their commanders.

I don’t understand. If there were a war crime in Potsdam in 1945 ( the mass execution of civils/pows is a crime on definition) then why the GErman state prosecutor shall wait.
They might to appeal to an International Court of Justice or Huge tribunal , that might to demand the Russian side to present the documents.
And why is the GErman mass media still keeping the silence about that unfair crime?

Well, they’re waiting for Moscow to react. And -this should be the case in every country- the mills of justice grind slowly as we say here. Basically, preliminary investigation by public prosecution takes time, especially in a sensitive case like this one.

They might to appeal to an International Court of Justice or Huge tribunal , that might to demand the Russian side to present the documents.

I don’t really know about the competency of courts regarding WW2 war crimes but from rememberance I’m almost sure that local courts are competent when German war criminals were accused during the last couple of years.

And why is the GErman mass media still keeping the silence about that unfair crime?

That’s common German conduct nowadays. By shouting the incident from the rooftops German authorities certainly fear feeding the right wing extremists with reasons to march in the streets once more - especially in eastern German regions like Potsdam/Brandenburg.

But why to hell they need to wait the Moscow’s reaction?
Do you still exist in …Soviet Block?
Hey , the Berlin wall has been broken 20 years ago.
It’s already time to Broke it in YOUR minds, Guyes.
Why the crime against German civils shall be MORE “sensetive” then crimes commited against others?

I don’t really know about the competency of courts regarding WW2 war crimes but from rememberance I’m almost sure that local courts are competent when German war criminals were accused during the last couple of years.

The international court is obviously competent in WW2 war crimes, coz recently as i heard the Poles charged a suit agains Russia , to judge the war criminals in Katyn.
I think this is VERY right.Better to jugle the PERSONAL criminals then to ignore the problem , spoiling the mutual relations.
Besides the War Crimes have not time of expiration.
Even your own courts are competent, so you might to start the procedure yourself.
Without the somebody’s reaction.

That’s common German conduct nowadays. By shouting the incident from the rooftops German authorities certainly fear feeding the right wing extremists with reasons to march in the streets once more - especially in eastern German regions like Potsdam/Brandenburg.

And why it’s so happend that nobody except the Right Wing parties CARES about crimes , commited against GErmans civils?
Why do you GIVE then that strong propogandic matter?
Are you living in Second-hand country?Where the lives of YOUR people costs less then others?
Why , in mythical fear of “feeding the extremists”, the Auhtorities ACTUALY feed them, hiding the crimes against YOUR own peoples?
Is it authority of YOUR country or alien, you shall to ask.
I think Germany has enough control-levels to Russia, including the Gazprom property , to make the Kremlin be interesting in Justice;)

I think you got me wrong here. German prosecutors want unit numbers and officers’ names from Moscow. They don’t want a charge against persons unknown.

The international court is obviously competent in WW2 war crimes, coz recently as i heard the Poles charged a suit agains Russia , to judge the war criminals in Katyn.
I think this is VERY right.Better to jugle the PERSONAL criminals then to ignore the problem , spoiling the mutual relations.
Besides the War Crimes have not time of expiration.
Even your own courts are competent, so you might to start the procedure yourself.
Without the somebody’s reaction.

As I mentioned before in this thread. Potsdam is on former GDR soil. GDR historiography did not know about war crimes/atrocities committed against the German population by the Red Army. This was imperialistic propaganda, the Treuenbrietzen victims were killed during an allied air-raid, period. The incidents came to light when Italian authorities examined the death of 127 Italian forced laborers on April 23, 1945 (the so-called First Treuenbrietzen Massacer).
As for competency of courts: right now in my hometown a 86-year-old native Dutchman and former Waffen-SS member is charged by the local District Court for the assassination of three Dutchmen in 1945.
Also watch the Scheungraber Case:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26720207/
So, local courts are competent and Potsdam prosecution will move on when (if) Moscow responds.

And why it’s so happend that nobody except the Right Wing parties CARES about crimes , commited against GErmans civils?
Why do you GIVE then that strong propogandic matter?
Are you living in Second-hand country?Where the lives of YOUR people costs less then others?
Why , in mythical fear of “feeding the extremists”, the Auhtorities ACTUALY feed them, hiding the crimes against YOUR own peoples?
Is it authority of YOUR country or alien, you shall to ask.

Germany lost the war, that’s the reason. Nowadays’ Germans still cherish their very own “We started the whole mess, we deserved the consequences (and still do)” attitude. Means, people won’t dare accusing the violent death of a 1000 Germans in Treuenbrietzen as their country is responsible for the death of 55-60 millions.
Anyway, atrocities against German civilians are not kept hidden here, they’re just mentioned kind of parenthetically in the press.

I think it is understandable that the government in Germany would be very reluctant to bring up crimes against German civilians in 1944/45 due to guilt over the enormity of the crimes of the nazis and the guilt of the German people of that period. The murderous acts were on such an enormous scale that it seems difficult to believe that most Germans did not know what was going on.