Execution of civils in the East

Chevan · March 9, 2009, 7:26am

They can’t learn the names untill the court investigation is started.
So what they waiting for to start the procedure?
If robber killed your relaitve- will you to wait while he names you his name befor to go at Police?

As I mentioned before in this thread. Potsdam is on former GDR soil. GDR historiography did not know about war crimes/atrocities committed against the German population by the Red Army. This was imperialistic propaganda, the Treuenbrietzen victims were killed during an allied air-raid, period. The incidents came to light when Italian authorities examined the death of 127 Italian forced laborers on April 23, 1945 (the so-called First Treuenbrietzen Massacer).
As for competency of courts: right now in my hometown a 86-year-old native Dutchman and former Waffen-SS member is charged by the local District Court for the assassination of three Dutchmen in 1945.
Also watch the Scheungraber Case:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26720207/

DDR and imperialistic propogand is in a past.
It’s time to forget about.
In Germany there are the man might be charged for killing three foreigners 60 years ago, but if someone to kill the germans - is’ all right, we are afraid to feed the OUR right wings.
This is immoral.Plus this is double-standards to your own people.
Now i do understand why the German Ultra-right feel good and rise their popularity.

So, local courts are competent and Potsdam prosecution will move on when (if) Moscow responds.

That’s fine.
So if Kremlin say NO- them there will be no court at all.
Nice justice.

Germany lost the war, that’s the reason. Nowadays’ Germans still cherish their very own “We started the whole mess, we deserved the consequences (and still do)” attitude. Means, people won’t dare accusing the violent death of a 1000 Germans in Treuenbrietzen as their country is responsible for the death of 55-60 millions.

Yes Germany lost the war, but all whom started the war died or have been executed in Nurenberg.
As for German war criminals - the essential part of them aslo has been judged and executed.( sure not all, some has escaped to Arabs or Canada but though)
SO what’s problem to persecute few of Soviet war criminals NOW?

flamethrowerguy · March 9, 2009, 3:19pm

Preliminary investigation by public prosecution are on, the request for information to Moscow is just one part of it.

DDR and imperialistic propogand is in a past.
It’s time to forget about.

That’s easily said. Are you sure people in Russia have closed the topic USSR in their minds completely?

In Germany there are the man might be charged for killing three foreigners 60 years ago, but if someone to kill the germans - is’ all right, we are afraid to feed the OUR right wings.
This is immoral.Plus this is double-standards to your own people.

It’s not considered “alright”. There’s basically just a lower kind of feedback in the press etc.

Now i do understand why the German Ultra-right feel good and rise their popularity.

I don’t know if their popularity is actually increasing. After all even their top people in politics don’t miss a chance to show their true nature, being just simple thugs, nothing more.

That’s fine.
So if Kremlin say NO- them there will be no court at all.
Nice justice.

Well, then it will be the “charge against unknown” I mentioned.

SO what’s problem to persecute few of Soviet war criminals NOW?

We’ll see. Personally I got the impression that Moscow isn’t too anxious about sending some of their vets to their doom. Just remember how long it took them to admit the responsibility for Katyn…

Schuultz · March 9, 2009, 5:08pm

Flamethrowerguy put it exactly to the point: Germans fear that if they speak out for Germans against their enemies in WW2, they both feed the Right Wing and might get associated with them. It’s turned into a Paranoia, though this Paranoia is slowly (literally) dying away together with the older Generations.

I’ve talked to many friends in Germany, and oddly enough, though they usually don’t dare to speak out on their own, they’re proud of their country, and they’re disgusted by both crimes committed by them and against them. They just don’t talk about it publicly, because, well, it’s somewhat of a taboo.

You can usually always trust into some proud-less asshole to show up and accuse you of being a Nazi if you speak Pro-Germany, and not everybody has the character or the will to oppose them and explain them that you can be a proud German without being a Nazi - something I usually try to do whenever possible/necessary - I love showing these kinds of people what assholes they are.

In my opinion, the Nazis took from the Germans one of the most precious things that any people owns: Our history and national pride.

The Nazis took from us one of the medals most strongly associated with the creation of Germany, the Iron Cross, and made it their own in public conception.
They took from us the pride in our past military victories, and made it their own.
They took from us the pride in being a unified, strong German nation, and made it their own.

And now, it’s the younger Generations that have to make these things their own again, by stopping to associate all this with the Nazi regime. I, for one, hope that we can achieve that rather sooner than later.

Self-pity is no good sentiment for a nation, and it cannot lead to any good, just think of the numbers of people migrating away (My parents included). Not until we finally manage to get this dark period of our history behind us, can Germany once again become a real nation.

Uyraell · March 10, 2009, 5:48am

Schuultz:

Flamethrowerguy put it exactly to the point: Germans fear that if they speak out for Germans against their enemies in WW2, they both feed the Right Wing and might get associated with them. It’s turned into a Paranoia, though this Paranoia is slowly (literally) dying away together with the older Generations.

I’ve talked to many friends in Germany, and oddly enough, though they usually don’t dare to speak out on their own, they’re proud of their country, and they’re disgusted by both crimes committed by them and against them. They just don’t talk about it publicly, because, well, it’s somewhat of a taboo.

You can usually always trust into some proud-less asshole to show up and accuse you of being a Nazi if you speak Pro-Germany, and not everybody has the character or the will to oppose them and explain them that you can be a proud German without being a Nazi - something I usually try to do whenever possible/necessary - I love showing these kinds of people what assholes they are.

In my opinion, the Nazis took from the Germans one of the most precious things that any people exists: Our history and national pride.

The Nazis took from us one of the medals most strongly associated with the creation of Germany, the Iron Cross, and made it their own in public conception.
They took from us the pride in our past military victories, and made it their own.
They took from us the pride in being a unified, strong German nation, and made it their own.

And now, it’s the younger Generations that have to make these things their own again, by stopping to associate all this with the Nazi regime. I, for one, hope that we can achieve that rather sooner than later.

Self-pity is no good sentiment for a nation, and it cannot lead to any good, just think of the numbers of people migrating away (My parents included). Not until we finally manage to get this dark period of our history behind us, can Germany once again become a real nation.

Jawohl! Das ist Stimmt!

I couldn’t agree more, my friend!

You have hit the nail on the head.

Very well reasoned posting, with which I agree.

Regards, Uyraell.

freyir_33 · March 10, 2009, 4:32pm

Schuultz:

Flamethrowerguy put it exactly to the point: Germans fear that if they speak out for Germans against their enemies in WW2, they both feed the Right Wing and might get associated with them. It’s turned into a Paranoia, though this Paranoia is slowly (literally) dying away together with the older Generations.

I’ve talked to many friends in Germany, and oddly enough, though they usually don’t dare to speak out on their own, they’re proud of their country, and they’re disgusted by both crimes committed by them and against them. They just don’t talk about it publicly, because, well, it’s somewhat of a taboo.

You can usually always trust into some proud-less asshole to show up and accuse you of being a Nazi if you speak Pro-Germany, and not everybody has the character or the will to oppose them and explain them that you can be a proud German without being a Nazi - something I usually try to do whenever possible/necessary - I love showing these kinds of people what assholes they are.

In my opinion, the Nazis took from the Germans one of the most precious things that any people owns: Our history and national pride.

The Nazis took from us one of the medals most strongly associated with the creation of Germany, the Iron Cross, and made it their own in public conception.
They took from us the pride in our past military victories, and made it their own.
They took from us the pride in being a unified, strong German nation, and made it their own.

And now, it’s the younger Generations that have to make these things their own again, by stopping to associate all this with the Nazi regime. I, for one, hope that we can achieve that rather sooner than later.

Self-pity is no good sentiment for a nation, and it cannot lead to any good, just think of the numbers of people migrating away (My parents included). Not until we finally manage to get this dark period of our history behind us, can Germany once again become a real nation.

Hör auf zu heulen, there are other things to proud of, than pure national pride and strength. I think the way post war Germany has always been able to apply self censorship to herself in term of militarism is one of it’s greatest achievements as a nation. And that has never been a problem, at least among my friends to talk about, or express German pride when it comes to pre ww2 historical events for that sake.

What is it you want more?, I can assure you it is not mutch different in other European countries when someone want to express super flu nationalist feelings.

Schuultz · March 10, 2009, 5:05pm

Who’s crying? I’m simply making a point. Of course there are other things to be proud of. But I think it is actually important to be proud of the nation of which one is a part of. If you are not, I feel sorry for you, but it is obviously your choice. I imagine living in a country which I don’t like to be pretty depressing, though.

I think the way post war Germany has always been able to apply self censorship to herself in term of militarism is one of it’s greatest achievements as a nation.

I agree that militarism isn’t desirable, but a healthy medium should be present, and Modern Germany does not have that. I don’t want militarism as it was in the German Empire, but at the same time, I think a people should be proud of its soldiers, who are willing to sacrifice themselves for their nation.

And censorship is never something to be proud of, be it regarding militarism or communism. When you allow them to censor one thing, how are you going to stop them from censoring something else that they (the Government) don’t like, Genosse?

A great example of our ‘prestigious’ self-censorship:

CryTek is a German PC-Game developer, located in Hamburg, that has become famous for its High-Quality video games, mainly First Person Shooters. Now there’s just one problem.
Our dear government is making life a living hell for them, because, other than other countries, that support their developers, the German government does not support the developers which develop ‘Killerspiele’ (Killer-Games), as the Government likes to describe Shooters.
So now, they have to include partially ridiculous codes in the game, to prevent the battles from seeming too realistic. A nightmare for a Game-Studio in a time when everything moves towards being more realistic.
Result: The Turkish-Born Owners have decided not to put up with this anymore, and first opened a studio in Istanbul, now one in California, and slowly start to outsource their development, in order to close the Studio in Germany, and cost almost 300 people their jobs.

Way to go Germany, your self-censorship really worked.

And that has never been a problem, at least among my friends to talk about, or express German pride when it comes to pre ww2 historical events for that sake.

Just wondering: How old were they, and where were they from (East/West suffices)

The first question is relevant regarding my point made earlier, the second one is out of anthropological interest. I’m working on a University paper dealing with the different attitudes towards history regarding (formerly) Eastern and Western Germans.

What is it you want more?, I can assure you it is not mutch different in other European countries when someone want to express super flu nationalist feelings.

Who’s talking about super flu nationalist feelings? I’m talking about normal, healthy national pride.
(Nationalism is another word stigmatized by the Nazis, and I hope that was not part of your implication)
I go to the US and I see US Flags in the yards. I go to France, I see French flags in the yards. I go to England, and I see Union Jacks… well, everywhere.
I go to Germany, I see the Flags during soccer events, but not much else.
I’ve had a neighbor once, who had a German flag hanging in the garden, and after several acts of vandalism, involving ‘Nazi’ written all over the door and the flag ripped down, he decided to get rid of it.

freyir_33 · March 10, 2009, 6:47pm

Hallo Genosse,

Schuultz:

Who’s crying?

I agree that militarism isn’t desirable, but a healthy medium should be present, and Modern Germany does not have that. I don’t want militarism as it was in the German Empire, but at the same time, I think a people should be proud of its soldiers, who are willing to sacrifice themselves for their nation.

And censorship is never something to be proud of, be it regarding militarism or communism. When you allow them to censor one thing, how are you going to stop them from censoring something else that they (the Government) don’t like, Genosse?

A great example of our ‘prestigious’ self-censorship:

CryTek is a German PC-Game developer, located in Hamburg, that has become famous for its High-Quality video games, mainly First Person Shooters. Now there’s just one problem.
Our dear government is making life a living hell for them, because, other than other countries, that support their developers, the German government does not support the developers which develop ‘Killerspiele’ (Killer-Games), as the Government likes to describe Shooters.
So now, they have to include partially ridiculous codes in the game, to prevent the battles from seeming too realistic. A nightmare for a Game-Studio in a time when everything moves towards being more realistic.
Result: The Turkish-Born Owners have decided not to put up with this anymore, and first opened a studio in Istanbul, now one in California, and slowly start to outsource their development, in order to close the Studio in Germany, and cost almost 300 people their jobs.

Way to go Germany, your self-censorship really worked.

I rather meant the self censorship on behalf of the post War German mentality, not so much the censorship imposed by the authorities. The strict German laws on electronic media, is strictly to protect minors, and has nothing to do with past, but I understand can be felt like that. Countries like Norway and Sweden has many laws who is limiting the personall freedom of it’s citizens, laws that would be unthinkable in Germany.

Mosly male

Hamburg,Freiburg

Age: 26-40

Hmmm the flag matter again :), a flag in Germany(due to history) is associated with the military, but again flags are used in Germany when it’s needed, on ships etc, and puplic buildings. In Denmark the flag is a national symbol, mostly associated with birthdays or the queen. But off course some trauma is still there, but I guess all things take time. After all WW2 was
hell of a thing, especially for Russia and Germany.

Chevan · March 11, 2009, 6:38am

You shall not care about Russian inner prejudices/problems.
You have an ability to influence at Russian gov( who in fact doesn’t consider themself as SOviet heir)
Otherwise they would not to critic the Communism and destroy the USSR.
This is just matter of principle, and …Justice

We’ll see. Personally I got the impression that Moscow isn’t too anxious about sending some of their vets to their doom. Just remember how long it took them to admit the responsibility for Katyn…

Again , you have not to care about Moscow’s “anxious”, just like Poles do not:)
What are you being afraid for.
The Moscow will enter tanks in Berlin?Or to drop the nuclear bomb?
Or (can’t imagine that terrible atrocity) cut off the gas pupeline?:mrgreen:

Chevan · March 11, 2009, 6:53am

Yes , i think you right, this is Paranoia.
But that PAranoia NEVER will die, even after two-three generations( that inf fact already passed)
You shall look at what you to teach your nowaday generation right now .
You show them such a bright example that it’s a “Right Wing extremist matter” - to judge the criminals who executed Germans civils.
And they will repeat it for their children.While the real Right extremist will feed themself by such situation and PRs themself as the ONLY patriots of GErman nation.
Paranoia never die.Until you will have killed it in your mind.
My oppinion is that we shall judge all the criminals- both the GErmans and the SOviets/russians.
Doesn’t care even if their ralatives are in power now.
Otherwise out peoples will feel the hostility and lack of trust.
this is much more danger than to judge or imprison the few old soviet “vets” ( indeed likely the old NKVD Staff Rats , who were responsible for order of mass execution of civils)
You sponsor the Right Wings indeed by such a realtion to your own past.

freyir_33 · March 13, 2009, 4:30pm

I agree, the problem in Germany is that the right wings has allways been covering up the old monster, and combined national pride with the support of old values. But Germany’s history is unique, therefore a new national pride has developed, a much better one.

I have worked 10 years in the German aerospatial industry, both on the Eurofighter and later the on the A400M, and I can tell you that most Germans are proud of their achievements there.

Schuultz · March 13, 2009, 4:39pm

Could that have something to do with you working in the Army/Arms Industry, if I understand your statement correctly?

freyir_33 · March 13, 2009, 11:57pm

I just mean that most of my German friends are proud of the county’s individual achievements rather than the nation itself. A more healthy Nationalism than the one you will find in countries with a more homogeneous past.

Chevan · March 19, 2009, 6:33am

Well i can’t agree ,the NAtional spirit is pretty importian for individual success, freyir
I would be very proud of GErman NATIONAL industry , cultural and scientific achievements.
In fact they have contributed much to a technical progress during the ww2, i don’t mean the machines of mass killing kinda Giant gas chambers ans ets :rolleyes: but their Rockets and submarine was superior for it’s time.
But again the way they have applied it wasn’t superior.

Rising_Sun · March 19, 2009, 12:04pm

I don’t understand that distinction.

How can one be proud of one’s country’s individual national achievements yet be unable to be proud of the nation?

Any country with a population which has no pride in their country is on the road to national oblivion. Germans don’t strike me as that sort of people.

Rising_Sun · March 19, 2009, 12:28pm

Isn’t every nation’s?

So why did you claim that modern Germans have no national pride, to which I responded in my last post?

herman2 · March 19, 2009, 12:35pm

YA!
Although I am Canadian born, I am PROUD to have German roots and proud to hear about German achievements and I like it when I see other members posting on this site who are from Germany like Flame thrower guy.! I listen to Heintge and Heino because there German and I eat Crout and Haka Pate and gruen cole because I am proud and I am german!..(actually thats from a beer commericial, and it’s suppose to be “I am Canadian”…but I like my version too!
Deutschland über alles!
…and Canada too!:army:

Schuultz · March 19, 2009, 1:28pm

Pride in your German roots is just fine, but you don’t have to torture your ears because of it!

and I eat Crout and Haka Pate and gruen cole because I am proud and I am german!..(actually thats from a beer commericial, and it’s suppose to be “I am Canadian”…but I like my version too!

Again, being German is no valid cause to torture your senses…

Rising_Sun · March 19, 2009, 1:35pm

What are these exotic Teutonic delights with which Herman tortures himself?

Chevan · March 19, 2009, 1:46pm

Mr Herman is a GErman fifth column in Canada:D

BTW which side would you choose if lived during ww2 - Allied or Axis?

Schuultz · March 19, 2009, 1:57pm

For the most part, he wrote them completely false, so its somewhat hard to decipher. But believe me, none of those are especially good…

With Crout he means Kraut (Cabbage) with Gruen Cole he means Gruener Kohl (Green Cabbage) and I don’t have the slightest clue what he means with Haka Pate…