I agree the Pucara is worthy of a thread of it’s own, but perhaps a COIN-Aircraft of the 1960’s thought 1990’s thread might better serve?
My idea here is that though both were very fine aircraft, there was indeed a wide range of COIN aircraft produced in many nations though out the decades I mention, and that many of those derive inspiration and origin from WW2 aircraft.
Sounds good, sounds good, i am woking on it.
The german Broncos were used as target tugs.
Many Thanks my friend.
I’d forgotten the German Broncos had been used as target tugs., Strange how memory sometimes slips.
Am wondering on the Mohawk OV1 as used in Vietnam being considered a COIN aircraft. It would be considered so nowadays, but some half-formed thought says it ran under a different tasking designation in VN. At best, I recall it was not employed in the same manner as Skyraiders (aka “Sandies”) or B26 Invaders, nor the AC37 Dragonflies.
The other thought I had was on the Gunships, such as the C47 Spooky, the C119 Stinger, and the AC130 Spectre.
In the larger sense, they are COIN aircraft, though to a degree specialised .
I’ll do a bit of research as well, because the Cavalier and Turbo Cavilier (Basically rebuilt/re-engined P51/F51) also enter the picture to a small degree, as does the YQ/YQ series of quiet aircraft.
Kind and Respectful Regards PK, Uyraell.
Helo everybody, long time no “see” 
Panzerknacker, congrats for the pictures, as they said they are extremelly rare and I will certainly refer people to see them from other friends forums.
Somewhere there is the “account” or what it slipped to public or is simply a fabrication from imagination.
But iremember they were torpedos very old which were used from the Catalinas… I seem to remember that NOBODY in activity knew anythig about them or how to use them, drop speed, angle of attack, etc… I think they were not even user´s manuals and the last operator was in a sheltered home for being old!
In any case, they tried hard, and apparently almost got the " launch top" but the war finally ended without opportunity to try an attack, thing that probably was good as torpedo attacks agaist moder AAW and flak… it would have been suicidal…
I will try to get the link to the “gossip” about it.
Cheers to all,
Juan.
PS: Congratulations also for the promotion! A Full blown Colonel !
Muchas Gracias Panzon.
In regard of the torpedo armed IA-58 I read somewhere that the intended metod was as an auxiliary anti-submarine patrol helped by sensors of the navy S-2Es. The S-2e has the range to reach the Malvinas as loiter for about 3 hours. In the other hand the 24 Pucaras based in the Islands had not such range but since they did not need to cover the 1200 km from mainland argentina with 2 x300 l standar wingtanks they would be ok for a patrol. I an projected combined mission the Ia-58s would fly next to the S-2e and when the Tracker detect something they could attack with torpedos both or just one aircraft.
I dont know if that is complete crap but thats is how I remember.
I cant say for sure but I dont think that ever crossed the Air Force High Command to operate the torpedo Pucara against the british frigates or destroyers, the aircraft simply wouldnt survive the antiaircraft screen.
Am wondering on the Mohawk OV1 as used in Vietnam being considered a COIN aircraft.
The mohawk would be a good COIN but I guess it was overshadowed by the OV-10 in Vietnam and displaced to the observation and FAC role. By the way Argentina bought 24 Mohawks in 1992 and still has some in use.
I’d be interested to see pictures of the Mohawk OV1 in Argentine Service, my friend.
Thank you for the further clarification regarding the torpedoes, I did find it interesting’ sort of a 1980’s take on similar anti-shipping strikes as done in certain Coastal Command raids during WW2.
Panzon: Hello and Salutations. 
Many Thanks to you for your additions to the torpedo information as well, Sir.
I spent some considerable time reading over at the other forum:
I must say I was impressed with the warmth and cooperation between both Argentine and Brit members there.
I was even finding my very small knowledge of Spanish slowly improving as I read the posts.
However: the greatest thing I saw there was also the most moving: The respect between all members there, for each-other, and the compassion towards those who had fallen, both in the conflict and since.
I very nearly signed up to that forum, but refrained as I have so little to contribute, it being that my received view of the Falklands War was completely a media one: there just was not the information available at the time outside media sources, and so the war itself tended to become somewhat neglected as knowledge in the years that followed it.
It is a genuine pleasure to see you back here, Panzon.
Kind and Respectful Regards Gentlemen, Uyraell.
Panzon: Hello and Salutations.
I spent some considerable time reading over at the other forum:
I must say I was impressed with the warmth and cooperation between both Argentine and Brit members there.
I was even finding my very small knowledge of Spanish slowly improving as I read the posts.
However: the greatest thing I saw there was also the most moving: The respect between all members there, for each-other, and the compassion towards those who had fallen, both in the conflict and since.
I very nearly signed up to that forum, but refrained as I have so little to contribute, it being that my received view of the Falklands War was completely a media one: there just was not the information available at the time outside media sources, and so the war itself tended to become somewhat neglected as knowledge in the years that followed it.
It is a genuine pleasure to see you back here, Panzon.
Kind and Respectful Regards Gentlemen, Uyraell.[/QUOTE]
Hello Uyrael, many thanks for your kind reception after several months without visiting this forum where I also have some friends. With regards to the “other forum”, you must be mentioning Zona Militar, well… go ahead and enroll yourself there, as you said the subject is threated with respect and there is also the presence there of many VGM´s ( Malvinas War veterans) which, for the first time are telling their stories and the boys make the effort of translating into English the postings by British visitors. Trolls last there more and less seconds like over here and I will gladdly introduce you to everyone. Actually I think this two forums are quite interesting and anyone is invited to discuss and share information.
Question, what Uryael means? Sounds sort of middle eastern!
Cheers and let us stay in touch.
Juan.
Slightly better picture showing the fore and aft attachments
Some problems they had launching the Mk13 torpedo and the solutions (Although when they changed from Pucara AX-04 to A-566 they seemed to have some more)
The first launch of a Mk.13, takes place on 22 May, the torpedo having been a practice round, not equipped an explosive head. The launch zone established by the Navy, was located 40 miles from Puerto Belgrano, and would be the same location where later the same day, the second test launch would take place.
Launch involved having the aircraft establish a 20 degree dive, at a speed of 300 knots and at approximately at a height of 100 mts., resulting on the destruction of the torpedo when it impacted the sea. The same happens the next day when the parameters were a 45deg. dive, speed of 250 knots, and approximate height of 200 mts.
It became evident that there was something missing for the torpedo to be effectively deployed from an airplane with the performance of the Pucará.
Lacking the torpedo’s operational manuals for air deployment, the only information available was that it should enter the water at an angle of approximately 20 degrees. With a less acute angle, the torpedo would bounce when hitting the water, thus damaging the internal and propulsion mechanisms, and if the angle was greater, then there existed the risk that it would “spike” itself on the bottom of the sea.
After consultations conducted with retired sub-officers who had been assigned to the Army’s torpedo shops, a nose-mounted aero-dynamic brake was installed on the Mk.13, and a biplane stabilizer was installed in the tail end, additions that would be destroyed when the torpedo hit the water.
After these modifications were undertaken, the first successful launches take place on 24 May, off Trelew, in the waters of the San Jose Gulf. These took place while the airplane was on a straight and level flight attitude and at a height of 15 meters, and it was then determined that the optimal speed was 200 knots, since higher speeds caused the torpedo to impact the bottom of the sea.
Cheers,
Juan.
Very good data and in English! Quick reaction Leccy.
Hello Uyrael, many thanks for your kind reception after several months without visiting this forum where I also have some friends. With regards to the “other forum”, you must be mentioning Zona Militar, well… go ahead and enroll yourself there, as you said the subject is threated with respect and there is also the presence there of many VGM´s ( Malvinas War veterans) which, for the first time are telling their stories and the boys make the effort of translating into English the postings by British visitors. Trolls last there more and less seconds like over here and I will gladdly introduce you to everyone. Actually I think this two forums are quite interesting and anyone is invited to discuss and share information.
Question, what Uryael means? Sounds sort of middle eastern!
Cheers and let us stay in touch.
Juan.[/QUOTE]
Hello Panzon,
Thank you sir, for your kind reply.
I’ll enroll there at Z_M once I find the link again, it’s still in browser history.
I’m certainly interested in the history both sides have to share.
My nickname “Uyraell” is a very ancient spelling of the Latin Uriel.
Culturally, the Church managed to get a few things wrong with calling only Uriel the “Angel of Death” (?“Angelo Des Meurtes”?) … in the original Legends Uriel “took” the Souls, Asrael “transported” them. Both together are “The Grim Reaper”/“Angel of Death”. Both are twin brothers, both are ArchAngels.
In other places on the net, I use the name ^Uyraell^, and I also write poetry under the same name.
For many years now,^Uyraell^ or Uyraell has been My online Name. The Spelling I use predates Christianity.
Kind and Respectful Regards Panzon, Uyraell.
Brilliant picture Leccy, Thank you for posting it.
The rack the torpedo is on calls to mind the ETC 501 employed on the FW 190 A-5/U14.
Fore and aft retainer, short-armed crossbraces.
It would have taken a lot of courage to be the pilot of either aircraft, going into attack in that mode.
Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.
I’d be interested to see pictures of the Mohawk OV1 in Argentine Service, my friend.
Thank you for the further clarification regarding the torpedoes, I did find it interesting’ sort of a 1980’s take on similar anti-shipping strikes as done in certain Coastal Command raids during WW2.
You will, you will.
Thank for the aditional information Leccy.
Panzon: I undestand that the helicopter torpedo would be useless in a Pucara but wasnt the S-2e having more or less tha same speed as the pucara capable to drop torpedos also ?
Of course I guess they needed time for more test, time that wasnt available .
Now the frontal attack with lineal trajectory torpedo seems, and I dont mean anything disrispectul to you, kind of suicide, maybe was not, but that is how I see it.
[QUOTE=Panzerknacker;170341]Panzon: I undestand that the helicopter torpedo would be useless in a Pucara but wasnt the S-2e having more or less tha same speed as the pucara capable to drop torpedos also ?
Of course I guess they needed time for more test, time that wasnt available .
YOu are completely right! How can I be so stupid not to think on that! YOu have left me “bare assed”.
Now the frontal attack with lineal trajectory torpedo seems, and I dont mean anything disrispectul to you, kind of suicide, maybe was not, but that is how I see it.
I agree. I was just trying to find a reason for that… the more I think about it the more I think that some crazy ideas were boiling then… I can´t imagine a “Hiro Kitai” of Pucarás!
Juan
By the way ! Exellent painting by Carlos García, my appreciated “Mr. Járcia” from Argentina. I recommend to all a visit to his website to see such nice pieces of art www.aviationart.com.ar all are oil over canvas master pieces.
The site is both in Spanish and English.
Mr Ezequiel martinez have some decent painting too, this incidetally display the demise of Guadagnini a-4s and the fatal blow to the HMS antelope.
Panzerknacker my friend, you may wish to research the circumstances by which the Grumman S-2e came into Argentine service.
Yes: the original S-2e was very capable of dropping torpedoes, as in fact it had been conceived with this ASW role in mind.
However: iIrc (from another site, years ago, on USN Aircraft) the Trackers Argentina purchased were only able to be delivered to Argentina once the torpedo launching gear and targetting gear had been removed. This was because of the US State Department refusing to allow the torpedo equipment to be sold abroad (according to the reliable site I read this on).
From what I recall, the S-2e’s arrive in Argentina without the torpedo-equipment attached/fitted.
It is this factor you may wish to research: I have a feeling your sources of information may well be far better than mine in this context.
Kind and Respectful Regards, PK my friend, Uyraell.
Is possible that the torpedo launching mecha was not operative but also likely that it ws put in place in the argentine naval workshops. Remember that the frenchs sold the Super etendar without the complete software for launching the exocet missile. and the Exocet were launched succesfully after a lot of experimentation and test by the technical naval departament.
Trackers: more info translate here
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Armada%20Argentina/AviacionNaval/AS-Tracker.htm
Just to add my two cents, I have heard that the P3B Orion little fleet that the COAN operates came also “bare naked” inside, specially in the ASW aspect… I was told that the equipment was literaly torn apart from its racks… The radar came because it is an analogical vintage.
Well… now at least one of them can launch exocets, the radar has been digitalized by a scanner so it seems it can even clasify contacts. And I was also told that at least some of them have recovered their ASW “Nature”…
Also they have been equiped with an Argentine developed Data link ystem called LINK ARA… this aparently alows to receive and send info to the systems of other units, aerial and naval. So, what is detected by the P3B, can be used to attack as well as transfering info to for exsmple to the Sues so they can apear from nowhere.
In spite of the shortage of funds, they are not standing still. They even developed a battle system called MIniacco I supose as a joke due to the similarity with the SEWACO system from Signaal that equips the fleet… all units apparently are being upgraded with this, even the A 69 Corvettes made in France.
Cheers,
Juan.
In the minute 4 of this video you can see some of the screens inside the Navys P-3s.
A good clip, Panzerknacker my friend, and a good soundtrack too.
Looking at those screens, it is clear there have been system upgrades, even if the consoles them selves are of an earlier generation that is current elsewhere.
The way the data itself is presented on the consoles seems to confirm this idea.
As I’ve said elsewhere in other contexts, Argentina has performed a series of small military miracles over the years, often in technology that other nations take for granted. As such, Argentine ingenuity is to be admired, and I do.
The classic WW2 example is the Hispano cannon in the Spitfire.
One very unknown story, (and one that I have forgotten most details of, myself) is that it was an Argentine Armourer/Groundcrew in the RAF that solved some of the jamming issues in the early model Hispano employed in the Spitfire Mk II/Mk I B. He repositioned one of the brackets in the mounting. It wasn’t a “100% perfect” solution, but it was a solution that was very workable, and one that the “armaments experts” had not come up with, nor foreseen as necessary.
Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.
Lovely clip showing the tigercat air defense missiles, englische untertitel von panzerknacker.